1 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:22,160 [Music] 2 00:00:58,560 --> 00:00:55,050 hello there everybody and welcome to 3 00:01:01,380 --> 00:00:58,570 what is basically a new show and inside 4 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:01,390 our limits and I actually have a new 5 00:01:04,829 --> 00:01:03,430 co-host and by the name of Philip mantel 6 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:04,839 who may be known to one or two of you 7 00:01:10,889 --> 00:01:08,380 and just before I carry on I want to do 8 00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:10,899 I want to say thank you to where Paul 9 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:12,880 Sinclair for doing the out of nowhere 10 00:01:16,139 --> 00:01:15,550 radio show with me unfortunately Paul is 11 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:16,149 there 12 00:01:22,469 --> 00:01:19,090 it's overstretched air slightly and M 13 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:22,479 he's got too many commitments to carry 14 00:01:26,279 --> 00:01:24,280 on doing the outta nowhere radio show 15 00:01:29,070 --> 00:01:26,289 but I don't know Paul is investigating 16 00:01:30,779 --> 00:01:29,080 some very very interesting things up in 17 00:01:32,669 --> 00:01:30,789 air up around his own town of 18 00:01:35,249 --> 00:01:32,679 bridlington up there on the East Coast 19 00:01:36,889 --> 00:01:35,259 and I'm looking forward to what he's 20 00:01:39,690 --> 00:01:36,899 going to be presenting it next year's 21 00:01:41,930 --> 00:01:39,700 2019 conference so I just like to say 22 00:01:45,090 --> 00:01:41,940 welcome to Philip mantel welcome Philip 23 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:45,100 good evening Christopher Oh Christopher 24 00:01:50,969 --> 00:01:47,440 all right okay it's gonna be one of 25 00:01:54,169 --> 00:01:50,979 those is it and this week we're speaking 26 00:01:57,779 --> 00:01:54,179 to Peter Robbins hello Peter 27 00:02:00,449 --> 00:01:57,789 it's good hear your voices and you too 28 00:02:03,089 --> 00:02:00,459 you too now I will you today how are you 29 00:02:05,969 --> 00:02:03,099 keeping Peter good enough all things 30 00:02:09,330 --> 00:02:05,979 considered here where I live in central 31 00:02:12,479 --> 00:02:09,340 New York State it's a very brisk autumn 32 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:12,489 day rather sunny with a wind at the 33 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:15,790 moment and some deer just scampering by 34 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:18,450 on the front on the side lawn there Oh 35 00:02:22,170 --> 00:02:20,920 excellent that's a must be quite a sight 36 00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:22,180 you've got there they know your front 37 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:25,150 window it's funny I'm definitely a city 38 00:02:31,229 --> 00:02:27,280 person lived most of my life in New York 39 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:31,239 City in Manhattan but I've lived out in 40 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:33,970 the very pastoral Central New York 41 00:02:37,949 --> 00:02:36,550 countryside for years and I I still 42 00:02:39,690 --> 00:02:37,959 never get used to all these beautiful 43 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:39,700 wild animals and being surrounded by 44 00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:43,510 working farms and being you know out 45 00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:45,220 here where the hell in the middle of 46 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:47,200 nature absolutely brilliant that's 47 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:51,780 fantastic so the last 48 hours Peter 48 00:02:57,750 --> 00:02:55,540 must have been a bit upsetting as you 49 00:03:00,089 --> 00:02:57,760 know to see these things that have been 50 00:03:02,750 --> 00:03:00,099 on Facebook about you what's your 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:08,840 being rightly furious at the same time 52 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:12,610 you know maybe you're a bit like me and 53 00:03:19,470 --> 00:03:15,640 at moments of high emotion you can also 54 00:03:22,620 --> 00:03:19,480 split yourself off into your mr. Spock 55 00:03:26,810 --> 00:03:22,630 self the self that raises an eyebrow 56 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:26,820 rubs your chin and says rhetorically 57 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:31,450 fascinating captain I have been attacked 58 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:35,200 on and off over the years as people in 59 00:03:42,390 --> 00:03:37,810 public life are and certainly ufology is 60 00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:42,400 no stranger to that area but never have 61 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:45,700 I had the experience of being called the 62 00:03:52,949 --> 00:03:49,750 kind of names that I have and it 63 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:52,959 basically began on Sunday when a friend 64 00:03:58,729 --> 00:03:55,930 in the UK contacted me and said I don't 65 00:04:01,830 --> 00:03:58,739 know if you're aware but something very 66 00:04:05,070 --> 00:04:01,840 bad mean-spirited nasty and has been 67 00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:05,080 posted on line about you and I don't 68 00:04:08,789 --> 00:04:06,640 even know if I should send it to you 69 00:04:11,009 --> 00:04:08,799 because it will obviously make you feel 70 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:11,019 bad or hurt or angry and I said whatever 71 00:04:19,949 --> 00:04:14,350 it is send it and they did and I read it 72 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:19,959 and I kind of hit the ceiling I have 73 00:04:25,860 --> 00:04:23,710 never seen such language applied to me 74 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:25,870 before I had never even heard of the 75 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:29,560 individual who did it it was in response 76 00:04:41,909 --> 00:04:35,530 to a thread on Ben Emlyn Jones blogspot 77 00:04:45,180 --> 00:04:41,919 Ben being a UK blog show host who has 78 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:45,190 not been a fan of mine for my criticism 79 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:47,970 of Larry Warren my former co-author and 80 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:51,910 criticism of the process of the project 81 00:04:58,409 --> 00:04:55,530 being worked on right now of a 82 00:05:03,060 --> 00:04:58,419 documentary purporting to be around his 83 00:05:07,980 --> 00:05:03,070 alleged UFO experience and I I won't 84 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:07,990 even try to characterize the worst a 85 00:05:13,529 --> 00:05:10,900 statement but in the world of hate 86 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:13,539 speech I just want to preface what I'm 87 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:16,210 saying here because it is hate speech 88 00:05:21,210 --> 00:05:18,250 I'm taking a moment to describe 89 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:21,220 something that has been said about me 90 00:05:30,510 --> 00:05:24,930 online and in fact repeated three times 91 00:05:34,110 --> 00:05:30,520 and not to purport this can't stand this 92 00:05:37,379 --> 00:05:34,120 little Jew boy [\h__\h] deceiving little 93 00:05:40,350 --> 00:05:37,389 something-something can't stand this 94 00:05:44,189 --> 00:05:40,360 Jewish homosexual deceiving sly little 95 00:05:46,439 --> 00:05:44,199 blank I most think most think he's a 96 00:05:48,570 --> 00:05:46,449 sweet mild-mannered little old lady 97 00:05:50,850 --> 00:05:48,580 nothing could be further from the truth 98 00:05:55,230 --> 00:05:50,860 well in the interests of full disclosure 99 00:05:59,990 --> 00:05:55,240 I am Jewish and very proud of it 100 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:00,000 I also am very heterosexual although 101 00:06:05,249 --> 00:06:02,680 having spent a lot of my life in the 102 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:05,259 theater working in management in New 103 00:06:11,490 --> 00:06:07,810 York City and in the world of the Arts I 104 00:06:14,249 --> 00:06:11,500 have currently and have had many gay and 105 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:14,259 lesbian friends who I loved as much as 106 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:17,710 my straight friends can I just interrupt 107 00:06:22,050 --> 00:06:19,990 you there PSS there is absolutely 108 00:06:24,899 --> 00:06:22,060 nothing wrong with having gay or 109 00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:24,909 straight friends what counts is friend 110 00:06:29,399 --> 00:06:27,280 that is the important way exactly this 111 00:06:31,230 --> 00:06:29,409 person who has done this I'm not going 112 00:06:33,029 --> 00:06:31,240 to mention names but I think we both 113 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:33,039 know and I think Phil it may know whose 114 00:06:37,409 --> 00:06:35,740 name with we're talking about to me is a 115 00:06:39,510 --> 00:06:37,419 complete and utter lowlife and they 116 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:39,520 actually deserve to be reported for that 117 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:43,990 yeah yeah and I you know it's funny you 118 00:06:49,830 --> 00:06:46,710 I'm growing up Jewish and in America 119 00:06:52,850 --> 00:06:49,840 having lost relatives during the 120 00:06:56,189 --> 00:06:52,860 Holocaust stories that I grew up with 121 00:06:58,950 --> 00:06:56,199 not being a religious person certainly 122 00:07:01,200 --> 00:06:58,960 having a strong spiritual aspect growing 123 00:07:05,070 --> 00:07:01,210 up in the reformed Jewish tradition and 124 00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:05,080 the least religious and dogmatic I have 125 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:08,560 a ferocious pride in being Jewish one of 126 00:07:14,219 --> 00:07:12,550 the oldest religions that we have and my 127 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:14,229 life has been relatively free of 128 00:07:22,890 --> 00:07:18,270 anti-semitic remarks to have a 129 00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:22,900 homophobic xenophobic obviously women 130 00:07:28,829 --> 00:07:26,500 hating and trying to make me seem a 131 00:07:29,939 --> 00:07:28,839 feminine mild-mannered little old lady 132 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:29,949 mm-hmm 133 00:07:36,390 --> 00:07:34,330 and of course accusing me of having a 134 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:36,400 different sexual orientation that I have 135 00:07:41,550 --> 00:07:38,710 I guess because they thought that would 136 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:41,560 hurt my feelings or embarrass me 137 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:44,770 is fascinating on a certain level but to 138 00:07:47,309 --> 00:07:46,330 me is indication that I'm doing 139 00:07:50,550 --> 00:07:47,319 something right 140 00:07:53,610 --> 00:07:50,560 I also learned shortly after that very 141 00:07:56,219 --> 00:07:53,620 similar language has been used to 142 00:07:58,800 --> 00:07:56,229 describe me going back several years 143 00:08:01,110 --> 00:07:58,810 when I still considered Larry Warren a 144 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:01,120 brother still regularly lost sleep at 145 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:03,969 night wondering and worrying about his 146 00:08:09,809 --> 00:08:07,330 health and well-being that when he would 147 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:09,819 get angry at me he would say the exact 148 00:08:14,909 --> 00:08:12,490 same phrase but with it were swear word 149 00:08:17,939 --> 00:08:14,919 added into it and I have that in the 150 00:08:20,219 --> 00:08:17,949 last 48 hours confirmed from three 151 00:08:22,769 --> 00:08:20,229 different individuals all of whom at 152 00:08:24,749 --> 00:08:22,779 different times looked up to him and had 153 00:08:29,010 --> 00:08:24,759 tremendous respect and admiration for 154 00:08:31,769 --> 00:08:29,020 him but made the unforgivable mistake of 155 00:08:35,310 --> 00:08:31,779 bringing to his attention discrepancies 156 00:08:37,860 --> 00:08:35,320 in his published and and spoken remarks 157 00:08:41,250 --> 00:08:37,870 over the years and reality 158 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:41,260 Larry's a pathological liar and it cost 159 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:42,940 me tremendously in terms of my 160 00:08:48,449 --> 00:08:46,630 reputation to stand by him until I began 161 00:08:54,630 --> 00:08:48,459 to look at the evidence presented to me 162 00:08:57,150 --> 00:08:54,640 so that's the way it is and yes they 163 00:08:59,819 --> 00:08:57,160 should be reported and at the moment I'm 164 00:09:01,800 --> 00:08:59,829 thinking this through and allowing 165 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:01,810 everything online to stand I think 166 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:04,630 people should see this and the very 167 00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:07,990 interesting dialogue thread that has 168 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:11,440 sprung from it with a lot of good people 169 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:13,480 and people wanting to know more about 170 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:15,310 this offering their remarks and 171 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:18,310 observations it is a shame that it's 172 00:09:22,199 --> 00:09:18,910 come to this 173 00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:22,209 certain people refuse to admit they've 174 00:09:27,870 --> 00:09:24,790 made an error and will simply double 175 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:27,880 down on the lies and attack people who 176 00:09:33,930 --> 00:09:30,880 call their their deceptions into 177 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:33,940 question it's a character thing and I 178 00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:36,640 think above all else it's extremely sad 179 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:39,670 I have moved on in my life but I'm 180 00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:43,010 certainly not going to leave this 181 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:46,640 relative outrage unaddressed just like 182 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:48,710 to add to the record their peace of mind 183 00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:52,070 I read this I don't often read this kind 184 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:54,590 of tribe yes I am wide it like the 185 00:10:01,000 --> 00:09:57,530 plague best I found it disgraceful 186 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:01,010 that's at best but it just sickened me 187 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:03,530 and it was disgusting absolutely 188 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:06,560 disgusting and it doesn't matter whether 189 00:10:13,210 --> 00:10:08,570 they're talking about you me or anyone 190 00:10:15,250 --> 00:10:13,220 else it is an absolute disgrace and I 191 00:10:19,870 --> 00:10:15,260 refuse to follow any internet on it I'm 192 00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:19,880 not interested and and you know what can 193 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:21,920 you say there's not not a lot more to 194 00:10:25,570 --> 00:10:23,600 come out to that Peter I just wanted to 195 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:25,580 go on the record I'm not saying that 196 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:26,810 just because we're speaking to your 197 00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:29,210 face-to-face I would say it you think no 198 00:10:34,990 --> 00:10:32,240 matter who these remarks were aimed at 199 00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:35,000 because there's there's there's no room 200 00:10:40,810 --> 00:10:37,910 for them in this world it's as simple as 201 00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:40,820 that and it is sad and the the the 202 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:42,980 individuals made these comments you know 203 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:46,010 is a very sad individual indeed it is 204 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:47,870 absolutely disgusting hideous 205 00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:49,550 well said there Phil if I completely 206 00:10:56,950 --> 00:10:54,640 agree with that well said so now we've 207 00:10:59,050 --> 00:10:56,960 let's put that aside now because we 208 00:11:00,730 --> 00:10:59,060 don't want to make the full works for me 209 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:00,740 talking with Pete but with your pizza 210 00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:04,370 all about that now let's just go back to 211 00:11:11,050 --> 00:11:06,200 the beginning how would you become 212 00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:11,060 involved with ufology minding my own 213 00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:15,040 business as a a boy one afternoon 214 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:19,070 playing around with my sister Helen the 215 00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:21,920 early 1960s two kids at a very innocent 216 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:24,820 time in America relatively speaking 217 00:11:32,050 --> 00:11:27,890 probably around the time of the Cuban 218 00:11:34,420 --> 00:11:32,060 Missile Crisis and at the time we lived 219 00:11:37,180 --> 00:11:34,430 in a very pretty little village about 30 220 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:37,190 miles east of Manhattan my parents 221 00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:39,290 following that part of the American 222 00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:41,120 Dream and moving us out of New York City 223 00:11:47,770 --> 00:11:44,420 into the suburbs and it was a wonderful 224 00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:47,780 time for me I I was meeting the 225 00:11:54,130 --> 00:11:50,950 wonderful world of insects I lived in a 226 00:11:56,380 --> 00:11:54,140 block away from a state park I could 227 00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:56,390 take my bicycle on adventures 228 00:12:02,970 --> 00:11:59,200 I collected rocks and stamps and bugs 229 00:12:08,110 --> 00:12:02,980 you know read comic books and had a very 230 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:08,120 idealistic very innocent childhood and 231 00:12:13,770 --> 00:12:09,710 one afternoon 232 00:12:19,870 --> 00:12:13,780 I'm sorry late morning sometime in June 233 00:12:22,450 --> 00:12:19,880 myself 14 my sister just 12 I caught 234 00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:22,460 something some movement in the sky out 235 00:12:29,020 --> 00:12:25,880 of my right peripheral vision and I'm 236 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:29,030 speaking from memory here but also from 237 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:32,660 having returned to this place three 238 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:34,730 times in three different hypnotic 239 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:36,490 regressions with three different 240 00:12:41,530 --> 00:12:38,930 hypnotists including my friend and 241 00:12:45,010 --> 00:12:41,540 mentor the well-known writer and 242 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:45,020 abduction researcher but Hopkins a New 243 00:12:49,510 --> 00:12:46,910 York City police detective who was also 244 00:12:51,220 --> 00:12:49,520 a crack UFO investigator and another 245 00:12:54,670 --> 00:12:51,230 friend that had received training in the 246 00:12:58,840 --> 00:12:54,680 subject so what I say is is remembered 247 00:13:00,850 --> 00:12:58,850 in a way in four different levels but I 248 00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:00,860 called Helens attention to it either by 249 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:04,160 saying her name or look and there in a 250 00:13:10,540 --> 00:13:08,330 cloudless blue sky having come in at an 251 00:13:14,740 --> 00:13:10,550 angle and stopping over the neighbor's 252 00:13:19,900 --> 00:13:14,750 house were five silvery white disc 253 00:13:21,850 --> 00:13:19,910 shaped objects approximating the shape 254 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:21,860 of dinner plates held in an angle they 255 00:13:27,790 --> 00:13:25,010 were elliptical Helen and I could 256 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:27,800 clearly see they were close enough to 257 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,170 see detailing around the edge of each 258 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:32,480 that when we finally discussed the 259 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:35,510 matter more than 14 years later which 260 00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:37,910 I'll get to in a moment we both agreed 261 00:13:42,490 --> 00:13:40,670 they only read like Windows wood on a 262 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:42,500 commercial airplane at an appreciable 263 00:13:48,730 --> 00:13:45,020 distance they were decidedly metallic 264 00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:48,740 but not shiny more like you know brushed 265 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:51,110 aluminum or something and they were in a 266 00:13:59,410 --> 00:13:55,910 precise v as in victor formation well I 267 00:14:01,140 --> 00:13:59,420 don't have to tell you guys we just 268 00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:01,150 started to look and look and look it 269 00:14:06,070 --> 00:14:03,920 they stayed there for an internally long 270 00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:06,080 amount of time at least two or three 271 00:14:09,970 --> 00:14:08,180 minutes to my best recall which is 272 00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:09,980 forever especially in 273 00:14:16,270 --> 00:14:12,860 kid time and I went a reaction that I 274 00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:16,280 have since chronicled at least several 275 00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:20,180 hundred times in investigations and 276 00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:22,100 interviews and people confiding things 277 00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:23,870 to you over the years you both had 278 00:14:28,590 --> 00:14:26,030 similar experiences I call it the 279 00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:28,600 checklist reaction and it's simply 280 00:14:33,490 --> 00:14:31,640 you're living your life minding your own 281 00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:33,500 business you look up and you see a thing 282 00:14:39,270 --> 00:14:35,750 or things that are unfamiliar to you and 283 00:14:41,950 --> 00:14:39,280 your rational mind simply clicks off in 284 00:14:45,310 --> 00:14:41,960 lively order everything they are not and 285 00:14:49,410 --> 00:14:45,320 minded just that these are not planes 286 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:49,420 helicopters blimps kites balloons clouds 287 00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:52,730 birds flotsam and jetsam reflections 288 00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:55,670 from the ground and then straining 289 00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:59,120 credulity thinking in so many words what 290 00:15:08,170 --> 00:15:00,800 in the name of God am I looking at here 291 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:08,180 and my take on the UFO phenomena was no 292 00:15:13,390 --> 00:15:11,210 I didn't have a take on it except that 293 00:15:16,290 --> 00:15:13,400 I'm old enough to have seen some of the 294 00:15:18,970 --> 00:15:16,300 wonderful old b-movies in our local 295 00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:18,980 movie house the fantasy theater 296 00:15:24,630 --> 00:15:21,680 wonderfully named on Saturday afternoons 297 00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:24,640 with some of my geeky little buddies and 298 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:27,200 for a very modest amount of money you 299 00:15:31,330 --> 00:15:29,330 get two movies in the cartoon in Israel 300 00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:31,340 kinda feel like you know a thousand 301 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:31,880 years old 302 00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:36,710 I do remember those guys that was my 303 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:39,680 take you know from flying saucers from 304 00:15:47,290 --> 00:15:44,270 the wonderfully bad - funny - scary - 305 00:15:48,070 --> 00:15:47,300 fascinating low-budget films that we saw 306 00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:48,080 his kids 307 00:15:55,930 --> 00:15:52,340 I certainly intuited the adult message 308 00:15:59,200 --> 00:15:55,940 that yes this is fun flying saucers are 309 00:16:01,090 --> 00:15:59,210 real in the movies but otherwise not 310 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:01,100 only they not real but if you talk about 311 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:02,810 them if you take them seriously 312 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:04,910 other people are gonna make fun of you I 313 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:07,010 understood that innately from the 314 00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:09,410 culture and I became with the culture 315 00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:11,390 and they didn't sit well through the 60s 316 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:13,280 well right up to recent sounds to be 317 00:16:20,290 --> 00:16:17,090 collapsed and I remember looking and 318 00:16:23,070 --> 00:16:20,300 thinking and straining please give me a 319 00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:23,080 way to see these in conventional terms 320 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:26,560 were round again disc-shaped ovoid so to 321 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:29,410 say they were decidedly no appendages of 322 00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:33,760 any type and at a certain point and I 323 00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,160 don't want to and I I will spend the 324 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:38,320 whole two hours with you guys because I 325 00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:40,810 realize you know the way the three of us 326 00:16:45,630 --> 00:16:42,510 are gonna go to our time will fly anyway 327 00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:45,640 at a certain point my anxiety was peaked 328 00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:47,590 to such a degree that I went to run into 329 00:16:53,330 --> 00:16:50,620 the house to tell our mom who I knew was 330 00:16:55,740 --> 00:16:53,340 in the kitchen making us lunch and 331 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:55,750 people have stopped me at this point in 332 00:16:59,400 --> 00:16:57,490 my relating this story which I have on 333 00:17:01,170 --> 00:16:59,410 quite a number of occasions and said 334 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:01,180 wait a minute you're seeing the most 335 00:17:04,110 --> 00:17:02,710 amazing thing you've ever seen in your 336 00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:04,120 life and may ever see again 337 00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,920 and you're telling me you're now looking 338 00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:07,360 away and going into that tell your 339 00:17:14,579 --> 00:17:10,959 mother yes that's how anxious I was and 340 00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:14,589 as I approached the front door having 341 00:17:23,190 --> 00:17:20,230 run as fast as my little like shoes tags 342 00:17:26,190 --> 00:17:23,200 tennis shoes whatever you'd call take me 343 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:26,200 I felt like I had kind of entered a 344 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:28,770 realm where everything had slowed down 345 00:17:35,310 --> 00:17:32,670 tremendously and to such a degree that 346 00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:35,320 once again sounds crazy but this is the 347 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:37,420 way it was for me and for countless 348 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:39,910 other people that the three of us have 349 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:44,050 interviewed over the years I became so 350 00:17:47,910 --> 00:17:45,730 fascinated with what was going on with 351 00:17:49,530 --> 00:17:47,920 me physiologically that I simply forgot 352 00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:49,540 about these things in the sky but my 353 00:17:55,530 --> 00:17:52,030 sister was still looking at how can that 354 00:17:58,950 --> 00:17:55,540 be well because I felt like I had was 355 00:18:04,590 --> 00:17:58,960 running through molasses and that if I 356 00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:04,600 spoke I sound very slowed down like a 357 00:18:12,450 --> 00:18:06,280 reference that will be lost on some 358 00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:12,460 younger people a um a a 78 record at 33 359 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:16,960 revolutions per minute yeah and I had 360 00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:21,970 three very clear thoughts before I went 361 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:22,630 unconscious 362 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:27,070 the first thought was I was falling in 363 00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:29,440 slow motion because I had lost motor 364 00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:31,390 coordination but there was no fear just 365 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:35,110 fascination and I'm heading toward the 366 00:18:38,910 --> 00:18:36,850 walkway and 367 00:18:42,540 --> 00:18:38,920 especially maybe it's a little boy thing 368 00:18:45,030 --> 00:18:42,550 but maybe it's a kid thing the scoring 369 00:18:46,890 --> 00:18:45,040 in the sidewalks when it breaks up a bit 370 00:18:48,810 --> 00:18:46,900 that's where ants often make their 371 00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:48,820 little civilizations there ant hills and 372 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:51,820 things and I was heading toward one and 373 00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:55,090 it was like oh look at the ants gee you 374 00:19:00,510 --> 00:18:56,080 know there they are 375 00:19:02,490 --> 00:19:00,520 and then noticing that my mother's 376 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:02,500 hydrangea bushes were in beautiful bloom 377 00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:04,180 and I think pale blue and my mom was a 378 00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:06,910 great gardener and how nice her plants 379 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:09,520 look my last conscious thought 380 00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:11,410 remembering where I'm coming from a few 381 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:14,230 seconds before was what a beautiful day 382 00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:19,090 it is bang I'm out hmm I wake up my 383 00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:22,060 first experience is some pulsation in my 384 00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:25,390 right forearm and I look and I see I've 385 00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:27,340 taken the skin off it because i skid it 386 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:30,190 into the concrete you know at regular 387 00:19:35,790 --> 00:19:32,110 speed no matter how fast I thought I was 388 00:19:37,950 --> 00:19:35,800 going and in hypnotic regression and I 389 00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:37,960 waited until I was ready and bud and 390 00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:40,840 Pete Missoula the cop were especially 391 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:43,990 very good practitioners and having 392 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:45,850 witnessed more hypnotic regressions than 393 00:19:50,550 --> 00:19:47,890 I can remember over the many years I 394 00:19:53,970 --> 00:19:50,560 worked as but Hopkins assistant people 395 00:19:55,290 --> 00:19:53,980 go in in different ways there are people 396 00:19:58,830 --> 00:19:55,300 who are cautious and there are 397 00:20:00,690 --> 00:19:58,840 instructions and words you know to help 398 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:00,700 get you out of it if you get scared I 399 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:05,110 was ready I was 14 again I was 14 years 400 00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:07,570 old and it was terribly moving I smelled 401 00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:09,670 the grass I listened to those recordings 402 00:20:15,420 --> 00:20:12,430 and I'm using phraseology and words I 403 00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:15,430 hadn't used in you know a very long time 404 00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:17,800 and my first thought this is not an 405 00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:19,750 adult thought this is an adolescent boys 406 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:22,960 thought was wow what a scab that's gonna 407 00:20:27,570 --> 00:20:25,330 make you know show the other guys how 408 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:27,580 about that look at all the skin I took 409 00:20:32,220 --> 00:20:30,130 off there I looked around my sister was 410 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:32,230 not there I went into the house I went 411 00:20:36,930 --> 00:20:34,330 up the stairs she and my other sister 412 00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:36,940 shared a room she was there with her 413 00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:39,280 back to me looking out her window into 414 00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:41,950 the backyard private moment I went back 415 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:44,440 downstairs and stood in the doorway 416 00:20:49,050 --> 00:20:46,570 between the kitchen and the dining room 417 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:49,060 and I looked at my mom who was at the 418 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:50,710 stove in right profile 419 00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:53,890 and I said the following words mom Helen 420 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:55,750 and I just saw some things in the sky 421 00:20:58,139 --> 00:20:57,610 that looked like flying saucers in the 422 00:21:01,440 --> 00:20:58,149 movies 423 00:21:03,870 --> 00:21:01,450 well fourteen and a half years later or 424 00:21:07,409 --> 00:21:03,880 so when Helen and I sat down with our 425 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:07,419 parents and told them this story and 426 00:21:12,419 --> 00:21:09,610 began our dialogue with them that lasted 427 00:21:14,130 --> 00:21:12,429 for they'll have the rest of my sister's 428 00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:14,140 life in the rest of my mom's life and 429 00:21:19,470 --> 00:21:17,260 that my dad and I still talked about my 430 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:19,480 mother didn't remember her reaction but 431 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:23,200 it was extraordinarily good considering 432 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:25,690 how many people I've interviewed who 433 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:27,850 remembered talking to their children in 434 00:21:31,049 --> 00:21:29,020 a moment where their kids might have 435 00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:31,059 said something similar and saying 436 00:21:34,529 --> 00:21:32,740 something like oh honey you just thought 437 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:34,539 that it looked like that but it was blah 438 00:21:41,159 --> 00:21:37,450 blah blah because they were anxious and 439 00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:41,169 they didn't want to you know reinforce 440 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:43,120 that possibility maybe because they had 441 00:21:48,090 --> 00:21:46,270 had experiences or you know criticize 442 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:48,100 you or laugh or whatever my mother 443 00:21:53,549 --> 00:21:51,370 simply looked at me and I remember very 444 00:21:55,649 --> 00:21:53,559 clearly thinking this is the way 445 00:21:57,450 --> 00:21:55,659 grown-ups look at each other she just 446 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:57,460 looked at me seriously for an extended 447 00:22:01,169 --> 00:21:58,510 number of seconds 448 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:01,179 didn't say anything brilliant decision 449 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:02,890 and went back to the stove I think she 450 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:06,370 was making us grilled cheese sandwiches 451 00:22:12,899 --> 00:22:09,850 later that afternoon my sister said to 452 00:22:16,049 --> 00:22:12,909 me do you want to talk about this and I 453 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:16,059 looked at her and said no why did I say 454 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:20,710 no I was 14 years old I was a nerd I was 455 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:23,610 a geek I was a short kid with glasses 456 00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:27,130 who longed for some contact with the 457 00:22:32,430 --> 00:22:29,830 girl run by my hormones wanted to be a 458 00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:32,440 foot taller having cooler clothes be one 459 00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:33,340 of the cool kids 460 00:22:40,620 --> 00:22:38,080 I was very concerned about how this 461 00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:40,630 would affect my social life growing up 462 00:22:47,070 --> 00:22:45,070 and I was anxious as hell because if 463 00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:47,080 what we had seen was what we had seen 464 00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:49,360 and something truly anomalous from parts 465 00:22:54,269 --> 00:22:52,270 unknown everything that I had learned 466 00:22:54,930 --> 00:22:54,279 from the adult world was now open to 467 00:22:58,110 --> 00:22:54,940 question 468 00:23:00,330 --> 00:22:58,120 and how do we do these things I can't 469 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:00,340 explain it we are very familiar with 470 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:02,080 repressed memory syndrome and much more 471 00:23:06,810 --> 00:23:04,510 conventional ways more tragic ways 472 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:06,820 terrible accident sexual abuse you name 473 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:10,120 it but people have the ability to clamp 474 00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:12,700 down sequester put things out of their 475 00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:15,220 minds and I did it within a matter of a 476 00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:19,870 few weeks it was nothing and my life 477 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:22,360 continued and Leto just going to 478 00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:24,640 interrupt you there sir and so you're 479 00:23:31,289 --> 00:23:28,750 repressing of this event so you repress 480 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:31,299 the memory of this event when memory 481 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:32,110 return 482 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:42,010 years later I'm now living my dream and 483 00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:45,250 I was a very lucky kid in that I knew 484 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:47,200 what I wanted to be professionally early 485 00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:51,010 on I was dyslexic many years before it 486 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:52,960 was a diagnosed term all I knew is I was 487 00:24:00,060 --> 00:23:57,010 bad in math but I was a very good young 488 00:24:03,659 --> 00:24:00,070 artist as a natural painter draftsman 489 00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:03,669 always the best drawer in my class and I 490 00:24:08,820 --> 00:24:05,230 nurtured those talents and they were 491 00:24:10,770 --> 00:24:08,830 supported wonderfully by my parents my 492 00:24:13,470 --> 00:24:10,780 grandparents all the adults in my 493 00:24:16,650 --> 00:24:13,480 general sphere I was a star in my high 494 00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:16,660 school I studied art and design at 495 00:24:22,110 --> 00:24:19,809 university left after two years to study 496 00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:22,120 at what I still feel is the finest art 497 00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:23,470 school in America the School of Visual 498 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:26,590 Arts in New York graduated from there 499 00:24:31,409 --> 00:24:28,410 joined the faculty several years later 500 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:31,419 taught painting there for 12 years 501 00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,570 and I was living the dream I was a 502 00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:37,120 painter living in lower Manhattan 503 00:24:41,220 --> 00:24:39,520 I had a commercial loft where like many 504 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:41,230 artists in New York at the time I was 505 00:24:45,539 --> 00:24:43,570 living there quietly illegally and 506 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:45,549 painting and in the making my sculptors 507 00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:48,730 and during the day I often work 508 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:51,940 contracting jobs the district in New 509 00:24:55,620 --> 00:24:53,770 York called Soho was undergoing a 510 00:24:58,140 --> 00:24:55,630 building boom at old 19th century 511 00:25:00,150 --> 00:24:58,150 industrial district that for years I 512 00:25:00,810 --> 00:25:00,160 worked helping to turn over old 513 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:00,820 buildings 514 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:02,890 I taught painting one night a week I 515 00:25:08,430 --> 00:25:06,250 like my life it was exciting and I was 516 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:08,440 starting to show my work and one 517 00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:11,740 afternoon the memory returned why and 518 00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:15,640 why then I think for several reasons 519 00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:18,160 number one maybe first and most 520 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:20,860 important my mind was ready to deal with 521 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:22,840 it but what triggered it I'm speculating 522 00:25:28,380 --> 00:25:24,490 here but it certainly informed 523 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:28,390 speculation this was fill in the pre 524 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:32,050 Giuliani when he was mayor era where he 525 00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:34,690 made fireworks well fireworks were 526 00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:37,540 technically illegal anyway but in the 527 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:39,160 cops always looked the other way 528 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:41,530 relative to our large Chinese American 529 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:43,810 community because it was a five thousand 530 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:45,010 year part of their tradition and it 531 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:46,690 never hurt anybody and it was never a 532 00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:49,510 problem and so Chinese New Year which 533 00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:51,520 occurs in February if you lived in 534 00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:53,830 Chinatown you didn't sleep for 48 hours 535 00:25:58,800 --> 00:25:56,680 it was non-stop and you know the air 536 00:26:00,180 --> 00:25:58,810 smelled of cordite fireworks would be 537 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:00,190 going on through the night as well as 538 00:26:05,270 --> 00:26:02,650 the day you'd be kicking through you 539 00:26:07,470 --> 00:26:05,280 know ankle deep and you know shredded 540 00:26:09,870 --> 00:26:07,480 firecracker paper as you walk through 541 00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:09,880 the neighborhood I hadn't slept much I 542 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:12,790 think my cat had a nervous breakdown but 543 00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:14,170 I was a little sleep-deprived 544 00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:18,580 I also had recently taken a human 545 00:26:23,490 --> 00:26:21,760 potential workshop and my mind was quite 546 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:23,500 opened and turning over different 547 00:26:29,790 --> 00:26:27,250 questions finally um a former girlfriend 548 00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:29,800 of mine at that time who remained 549 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:33,310 friends did something quite wonderful 550 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:35,530 she had just finished she worked in 551 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:37,510 commercial art and she had just finished 552 00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:40,090 the job of paste-up and layout as we 553 00:26:46,050 --> 00:26:41,830 called it at the time and had half a 554 00:26:49,020 --> 00:26:46,060 roll of acetate clear plastic left I had 555 00:26:50,850 --> 00:26:49,030 shown her several dozen drawings that my 556 00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:50,860 grandmother had recently given me that 557 00:26:55,410 --> 00:26:53,320 she had saved from my childhood this was 558 00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:55,420 not a period of time in America where 559 00:27:00,990 --> 00:26:58,450 parents did this or relatives it was 560 00:27:03,870 --> 00:27:01,000 relatively rare now most parents I don't 561 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:03,880 know how it is in the UK save so many 562 00:27:07,170 --> 00:27:05,410 little scratchings of their darling 563 00:27:10,140 --> 00:27:07,180 geniuses work and they go up on the 564 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:10,150 refrigerator with magnets but Peggy said 565 00:27:14,370 --> 00:27:12,010 if you give me those drawings I'll spend 566 00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:14,380 a little time and I'll put them each in 567 00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:17,110 their own self-contained plastic 568 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:18,580 sheeting seal it off with black 569 00:27:22,380 --> 00:27:20,650 electrical tape and it will protect them 570 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:22,390 and many of them are quite fragile they 571 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:24,370 went back to when I was six years old 572 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:27,130 and they ended when I was about 14 years 573 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:31,690 old no subject matter related to 574 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:34,210 the subject at hand but drawings that I 575 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:35,890 could have done within a few months of 576 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:38,530 the event in question and I had been 577 00:27:42,750 --> 00:27:40,570 sitting on the floor of my loft going 578 00:27:46,170 --> 00:27:42,760 through those drawings when the memory 579 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:46,180 returned guys all I can tell you was 580 00:27:53,550 --> 00:27:49,810 that within a matter of a minute my head 581 00:27:56,820 --> 00:27:53,560 was flooded with this whole event from 582 00:27:58,590 --> 00:27:56,830 the moment I caught sight of them right 583 00:27:59,940 --> 00:27:58,600 through the rest of the day right 584 00:28:03,240 --> 00:27:59,950 through Helen saying do you want to talk 585 00:28:05,850 --> 00:28:03,250 about this and me saying no and I was 586 00:28:09,030 --> 00:28:05,860 overcome with emotion at a certain point 587 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:09,040 I simply broke and I started to cry I I 588 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:11,380 thought I was going crazy the logical 589 00:28:17,370 --> 00:28:15,130 mind says how could you forget the most 590 00:28:21,210 --> 00:28:17,380 important impacting moment in your life 591 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:21,220 I had no answer but I calm down finally 592 00:28:24,210 --> 00:28:23,770 I had a cup of tea and I thought what do 593 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:24,220 I do 594 00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:30,610 logical one of you call your sister you 595 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:33,790 had a witness if this happened Helen 596 00:28:39,030 --> 00:28:36,970 would remember I had the forethought to 597 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:39,040 think this through before I made that 598 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:42,010 phone call my sister at the time lived a 599 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:43,450 mile or so north of me in the East 600 00:28:48,950 --> 00:28:46,810 Village was an aspiring poet making part 601 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:48,960 of her living she's a master seamstress 602 00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,890 graduated at French Fashion Institute 603 00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:52,960 among other things and making 604 00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:54,430 one-of-a-kind leathers for rock and 605 00:28:58,860 --> 00:28:57,070 rollers this was about a year before her 606 00:29:01,920 --> 00:28:58,870 career broke as a singer songwriter 607 00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:01,930 performer at the golden dawn of the age 608 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:04,540 of punk and CBGB's which became a 609 00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:07,290 regular hangout for us on other stories 610 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:10,240 in the mid seventies that went exactly 611 00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:13,410 so yeah that's just when Dahl was broke 612 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:16,480 1975 more than 40 years ago and I 613 00:29:22,410 --> 00:29:18,910 thought to myself what you don't want to 614 00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:22,420 do is gush out what you remember you 615 00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:25,270 want to find a way to say do you 616 00:29:29,030 --> 00:29:26,710 remember this without telling it with 617 00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:29,040 you what you remember and so I call I 618 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:31,180 asked her it was a good time to talk 619 00:29:34,740 --> 00:29:33,130 something important to chat about her 620 00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:34,750 memory has come back to me from our 621 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:37,030 childhood it just came back to me this 622 00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:39,370 afternoon and I want to know I need to 623 00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:41,440 know if you remember the same thing 624 00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:43,540 because we were together but I'm 625 00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:45,340 concerned if I tell you you 626 00:29:49,140 --> 00:29:47,320 say yes or no and I'll never know for 627 00:29:50,670 --> 00:29:49,150 sure she got it and she said how do you 628 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:50,680 want to proceed I said let me set the 629 00:29:56,190 --> 00:29:53,410 scene and I described the weather that 630 00:29:57,900 --> 00:29:56,200 beautiful late morning where we were 631 00:29:59,760 --> 00:29:57,910 standing exactly where we were standing 632 00:30:01,470 --> 00:29:59,770 on the front lawn and where we were 633 00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:01,480 standing in relation to each other and 634 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:03,640 she cut me off mid-sentence and started 635 00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:04,810 to laugh and said stop I know what 636 00:30:09,420 --> 00:30:05,700 you're talking about 637 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:09,430 well I said one and she proceeded to 638 00:30:15,630 --> 00:30:12,490 tell me just what I remembered with 639 00:30:17,550 --> 00:30:15,640 several noteworthy permutations she 640 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:17,560 wasn't sure whether it was five or six 641 00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:21,250 of these anomalous objects which we 642 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:23,220 settled very quickly the next day 643 00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:25,450 because that afternoon I did my very 644 00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:29,620 first painting of UFOs and I did six so 645 00:30:34,260 --> 00:30:31,990 that I could cover one with my hand when 646 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:34,270 I showed it to her the next day because 647 00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:37,210 I remembered it as an even the formation 648 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:39,460 like a check more which would have meant 649 00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:41,410 it would have had to been an odd number 650 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:43,360 and she agreed when she saw that the 651 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:46,690 next day and when she confirmed it to me 652 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:49,930 I had a reaction I'll never forget it 653 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:53,530 was somewhat kind of existentially 654 00:31:00,450 --> 00:30:56,170 schizophrenic oh my god they're real and 655 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:00,460 oh my god they're real and then she said 656 00:31:05,250 --> 00:31:03,130 something I will never forget which was 657 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:05,260 within word or two but there's more and 658 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:06,490 I'm not sure how you're gonna feel about 659 00:31:15,450 --> 00:31:07,530 it 660 00:31:18,770 --> 00:31:15,460 is not one that has entered popular 661 00:31:22,410 --> 00:31:18,780 culture it's not a subject of talk shows 662 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:22,420 there is probably a book or two on Betty 663 00:31:27,690 --> 00:31:25,420 and Barney Hill but abduction or 664 00:31:29,910 --> 00:31:27,700 literature in ufology is all but 665 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:29,920 non-existent and even if it wasn't I 666 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:32,410 could have cared less it just wasn't a 667 00:31:42,030 --> 00:31:36,250 subject that was part of my life and she 668 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:42,040 said but I remember you peeling off from 669 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:44,770 my peripheral vision on the right I knew 670 00:31:48,210 --> 00:31:46,330 intuitively you were running into the 671 00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:48,220 house to tell mom I couldn't take my 672 00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:50,710 eyes off these things and then her count 673 00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:52,960 she said within two or three seconds the 674 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:55,390 strangest thing happened I saw a blue 675 00:31:58,830 --> 00:31:57,370 beam of light shoot out of the bottom of 676 00:32:01,619 --> 00:31:58,840 one of these things 677 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:01,629 and I turned around to see you enveloped 678 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:04,090 in the light she said I was 12 years old 679 00:32:09,899 --> 00:32:06,850 but I wasn't stupid I know you can't see 680 00:32:12,810 --> 00:32:09,909 a beam of light in a daylight you know 681 00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:12,820 you can see it at night in the fog you 682 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:15,519 know like a laser or a strong flashlight 683 00:32:21,210 --> 00:32:19,570 in the UK not hard to do at all but 684 00:32:23,220 --> 00:32:21,220 that's what I was seeing you were 685 00:32:27,269 --> 00:32:23,230 enveloped in a blue beam of light it 686 00:32:30,330 --> 00:32:27,279 went off you went down and I went up no 687 00:32:33,239 --> 00:32:30,340 fear it was amazing I just started to 688 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:33,249 hit float up and for the first and last 689 00:32:37,259 --> 00:32:35,230 time in my life I looked down and saw 690 00:32:40,109 --> 00:32:37,269 the top of our house I saw you lying on 691 00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:40,119 the the lawn by the sidewalk getting 692 00:32:44,129 --> 00:32:41,740 smaller the bottom of this thing getting 693 00:32:47,549 --> 00:32:44,139 larger I'm sitting there in my loft 694 00:32:50,609 --> 00:32:47,559 listening to my sister thinking this 695 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:50,619 can't be this is impossible Helen and I 696 00:32:54,659 --> 00:32:53,110 were extremely close siblings we had 697 00:32:56,850 --> 00:32:54,669 each other's back from the time we were 698 00:32:58,970 --> 00:32:56,860 little kids we were adult roommates for 699 00:33:01,230 --> 00:32:58,980 many years neither of us marrying 700 00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:01,240 sharing many of the same friends both 701 00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:03,129 artists and writers editing each other's 702 00:33:09,889 --> 00:33:07,350 work you know smoking weed together 703 00:33:12,419 --> 00:33:09,899 supporting each other as artists 704 00:33:14,190 --> 00:33:12,429 emotionally financially depending on who 705 00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:14,200 was doing better than what department at 706 00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:17,950 the time and when I lost her 19 18 years 707 00:33:21,629 --> 00:33:19,990 ago I lost a big part of myself but I 708 00:33:25,109 --> 00:33:21,639 knew she wasn't lying there was no 709 00:33:27,239 --> 00:33:25,119 reason to lie more in retrospect the 710 00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:27,249 things that she told me these fragments 711 00:33:33,029 --> 00:33:30,340 of memory that then followed were not 712 00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:33,039 only archetypical of hundreds of 713 00:33:37,619 --> 00:33:35,470 interviews and segments of books and 714 00:33:42,619 --> 00:33:37,629 testimony from seemingly authentic 715 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:42,629 abductees they were word-for-word and 716 00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:45,129 she remembered being walked through a 717 00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:48,100 curved middle hallway by a bunch of 718 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:50,230 beings she described because the term 719 00:33:55,919 --> 00:33:52,330 gray didn't exist in the lexicon at the 720 00:33:58,739 --> 00:33:55,929 time of little doctors with big heads 721 00:34:00,720 --> 00:33:58,749 and big black eyes who talked to her in 722 00:34:04,289 --> 00:34:00,730 her head and one very tall one who 723 00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:04,299 seemed to be the in control yeah then 724 00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:07,809 she remembered being on the table with 725 00:34:12,419 --> 00:34:12,190 no clothes and not freaked out just you 726 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:12,429 know 727 00:34:17,579 --> 00:34:15,129 kind of fascinated and concerned hearing 728 00:34:21,690 --> 00:34:17,589 in her head you're special we've seen 729 00:34:24,690 --> 00:34:21,700 you before we'll see you again we love 730 00:34:27,210 --> 00:34:24,700 you and we will not harm you now a 731 00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:27,220 dichotomy was set up then and there that 732 00:34:32,220 --> 00:34:29,470 informed my sister's feelings about 733 00:34:35,010 --> 00:34:32,230 these beings and abduction for the rest 734 00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:35,020 of her life which was at that moment and 735 00:34:39,450 --> 00:34:37,119 she was very clear about this that she 736 00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:39,460 heard that admonition in her head of we 737 00:34:44,220 --> 00:34:42,129 will not harm you she was feeling pain 738 00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:44,230 from whatever procedure they were doing 739 00:34:49,349 --> 00:34:47,950 my thought after that my mind almost 740 00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:49,359 went blank 741 00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:54,220 I I knew I needed to know what the hell 742 00:34:58,980 --> 00:34:57,250 had happened what we had seen what his 743 00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:58,990 implications were and what had happened 744 00:35:04,019 --> 00:35:00,880 to my sister I should tell you 745 00:35:06,269 --> 00:35:04,029 parenthetically in the early 90s when 746 00:35:09,450 --> 00:35:06,279 Helen and I shared an apartment in 747 00:35:12,750 --> 00:35:09,460 Manhattan at that time and the first 748 00:35:15,059 --> 00:35:12,760 pilot episode of the x-files began we 749 00:35:17,099 --> 00:35:15,069 watched it together of course and we 750 00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:17,109 were both very taken that the Fox Mulder 751 00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:20,440 character is obsessed with the UFO 752 00:35:25,109 --> 00:35:22,240 subject because they took his sister in 753 00:35:26,549 --> 00:35:25,119 his case they didn't return her and we 754 00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:26,559 looked at each other and she said that's 755 00:35:31,470 --> 00:35:28,480 you except that they brought me back and 756 00:35:35,279 --> 00:35:31,480 I thought blank me I think you're right 757 00:35:36,839 --> 00:35:35,289 in some ways and then what started to 758 00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:36,849 happen was something I did not like at 759 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:38,980 all I became so obsessed with this 760 00:35:46,609 --> 00:35:43,210 subject and overnight that immediately 761 00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:46,619 my work and development as an artist 762 00:35:52,829 --> 00:35:49,510 dropped off the charts and I obsessively 763 00:35:55,700 --> 00:35:52,839 for months could do nothing but ellipses 764 00:35:58,859 --> 00:35:55,710 and circles and disks and flying saucers 765 00:36:01,859 --> 00:35:58,869 some of them very technical and careful 766 00:36:03,630 --> 00:36:01,869 others cartoon-like it wrecked my 767 00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:03,640 relationship with the art dealer that I 768 00:36:07,890 --> 00:36:04,990 think might have picked me up otherwise 769 00:36:09,390 --> 00:36:07,900 who became very uncomfortable seeing my 770 00:36:11,279 --> 00:36:09,400 new work compared to what she had seen 771 00:36:14,370 --> 00:36:11,289 on a visit to my studio six months 772 00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:14,380 earlier my I kept painting I kept 773 00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:16,990 teaching painting I continued to show my 774 00:36:21,390 --> 00:36:19,180 work but something devastating had 775 00:36:24,529 --> 00:36:21,400 happened I wasn't just a painter or an 776 00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:24,539 artist I was a New York painter artist I 777 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:26,260 met Andy war 778 00:36:32,070 --> 00:36:29,290 all I knew Roy Lichtenstein I was part 779 00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:32,080 of that scene I was coming up I had a 780 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:34,960 chance of becoming wealthy and famous 781 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:38,290 and having a giant ego lots of money and 782 00:36:43,950 --> 00:36:40,930 you know that kind of thin air sort of 783 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:43,960 intellectual fame and the heart had gone 784 00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:45,730 out of it I was playing at it I 785 00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:48,520 continued for years at a certain point I 786 00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:51,790 just gave up because I had something 787 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:55,000 else that I was doing and here we are 40 788 00:36:59,130 --> 00:36:57,130 years later reflecting back on it I'm 789 00:37:00,750 --> 00:36:59,140 still angry at it I would have liked a 790 00:37:03,060 --> 00:37:00,760 career as an artist and you know what I 791 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:03,070 do important work and I'm pretty good at 792 00:37:06,990 --> 00:37:03,250 it 793 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:07,000 who is some noteworthy exceptions and 794 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:08,410 I'm proud of the work that I've done 795 00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:11,650 overall and that's why you had me on the 796 00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:14,350 show absolutely absolutely 797 00:37:20,820 --> 00:37:17,470 so you realization when you sat and 798 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:20,830 talked with your sister with Helen and I 799 00:37:24,690 --> 00:37:23,050 was aware that she because I've lady 800 00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,700 speaking before about this picture about 801 00:37:30,060 --> 00:37:27,280 the abduction side of this but this 802 00:37:31,980 --> 00:37:30,070 abduction that she experienced and what 803 00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:31,990 you experienced on that particular day 804 00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:34,300 and then the realization that this had 805 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:36,220 actually happened yeah we'll see this 806 00:37:43,890 --> 00:37:40,690 that sent you into therapy ultimately I 807 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:43,900 should say that one of the first 808 00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:46,690 questions that I had and I think it's 809 00:37:50,250 --> 00:37:48,550 perfectly understandable is did this 810 00:37:53,370 --> 00:37:50,260 happen to me too and do and I don't 811 00:37:55,890 --> 00:37:53,380 remember as I began to buy books and 812 00:37:57,690 --> 00:37:55,900 read articles and this is all of course 813 00:38:00,200 --> 00:37:57,700 he forever 814 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:00,210 a pre-internet it was all you know 815 00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:02,770 analog and and finding clippings from 816 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:04,900 newspapers and you're discovering there 817 00:38:09,180 --> 00:38:06,910 was this organization called MUFON and 818 00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:09,190 you know getting journals here and there 819 00:38:16,590 --> 00:38:12,640 I was having a lot of trouble 820 00:38:19,950 --> 00:38:16,600 integrating this other reality into my 821 00:38:23,850 --> 00:38:19,960 day-to-day reality at one point I 822 00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:23,860 actually shocked myself I'm I'm a very 823 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:25,990 thematic person when I I studied at art 824 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:29,770 school I have a BFA with a major in 825 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:31,930 painting but my minor is in film history 826 00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:33,970 I have loved the world of movies and 827 00:38:37,980 --> 00:38:36,880 films since I was a little boy I had my 828 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:37,990 life worked out differently 829 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:39,690 I might have ended up as a film 830 00:38:44,329 --> 00:38:41,490 historian are working in some area of 831 00:38:45,980 --> 00:38:44,339 film culture but starting again when I 832 00:38:49,309 --> 00:38:45,990 was quite young seeing the old science 833 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:49,319 fiction movies one of the best and it's 834 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:52,410 also seen in classic American film 835 00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,410 studies as one of the great Cold War 836 00:39:00,319 --> 00:38:57,839 allegories for creeping communism at a 837 00:39:04,370 --> 00:39:00,329 time of great fear of communism in the 838 00:39:06,859 --> 00:39:04,380 50s in America was the unique terrific 839 00:39:09,530 --> 00:39:06,869 the invasion of the body snatchers a 840 00:39:12,819 --> 00:39:09,540 film that most people are aware of I 841 00:39:16,220 --> 00:39:12,829 don't know if it had much play in the UK 842 00:39:18,410 --> 00:39:16,230 the pods and I'm not talking about the 843 00:39:20,660 --> 00:39:18,420 the remake you know with dear Leonard 844 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:20,670 Nimoy in the 70s or 80s this is the 845 00:39:26,930 --> 00:39:24,450 original and at the end of it 846 00:39:29,750 --> 00:39:26,940 the lead character played by a wonderful 847 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:29,760 B character actor named Kevin McCarthy I 848 00:39:34,430 --> 00:39:31,650 had the pleasure of meeting some years 849 00:39:37,550 --> 00:39:34,440 before he died he's been the protagonist 850 00:39:40,579 --> 00:39:37,560 his life has been destroyed he knows 851 00:39:44,859 --> 00:39:40,589 these beings transform people he knows 852 00:39:48,530 --> 00:39:44,869 into these unfeeling robotic groupthink 853 00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:48,540 you know aunt bee mentality hive beings 854 00:39:53,359 --> 00:39:50,640 intent on taking over and destroying 855 00:39:55,550 --> 00:39:53,369 humanity and he's in the middle of a 856 00:39:57,710 --> 00:39:55,560 highway and he is like a madman he's 857 00:40:00,370 --> 00:39:57,720 screaming at people they're here they're 858 00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:00,380 here already you're next you're next and 859 00:40:06,109 --> 00:40:04,440 then they return to how the film open 860 00:40:09,950 --> 00:40:06,119 which is in a police station trying to 861 00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:09,960 explain all this in flashback and the 862 00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:11,910 cops are looking like you're crazy he 863 00:40:14,780 --> 00:40:13,140 looks like he's just gonna break down 864 00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:14,790 and cry because he knows nobody will 865 00:40:18,290 --> 00:40:16,710 believe him and then the film ends with 866 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:18,300 police coming in saying the damnedest 867 00:40:19,940 --> 00:40:19,410 thing just happened there was an 868 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:19,950 accident 869 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:21,810 a truck turned over and all these weird 870 00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:25,140 pods piled out and the cops get it and 871 00:40:29,660 --> 00:40:26,400 then they start screaming at each other 872 00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:29,670 to take action I had a moment some weeks 873 00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:33,900 a couple months after this reality 874 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:38,040 entered my life again and my my current 875 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:41,130 life as a young artist in New York where 876 00:40:45,770 --> 00:40:43,770 I was walking down East 23rd Street 877 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:45,780 heading toward the School of Visual Arts 878 00:40:50,780 --> 00:40:47,130 main building where I was going to teach 879 00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:50,790 my class and my mind literally went into 880 00:40:56,599 --> 00:40:53,190 like a split screen one half of 881 00:40:59,329 --> 00:40:56,609 me right where I was walking down East 882 00:41:02,510 --> 00:40:59,339 23rd Street in an easterly direction 883 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:02,520 toward the school and the other half me 884 00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:05,010 fighting the impulse to simply run out 885 00:41:10,250 --> 00:41:07,470 into traffic and start screaming at 886 00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:10,260 people that flying saucers were real and 887 00:41:17,089 --> 00:41:13,609 they take people this would have been 888 00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:17,099 1975 and it could happen to anybody 889 00:41:23,089 --> 00:41:20,730 it was so real it frightened me and I 890 00:41:25,099 --> 00:41:23,099 realized I needed some assistance in 891 00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:25,109 sorting this out professionally I 892 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:28,950 thought oh you know only people who are 893 00:41:33,289 --> 00:41:30,510 mentally disturbed going to therapy and 894 00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:33,299 I'm fine but I you know I knew people 895 00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:36,240 who weren't you know mentally ill who 896 00:41:40,549 --> 00:41:38,520 had therapists and I thought maybe 897 00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:40,559 there's somebody I can talk to but who's 898 00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:42,660 going to believe this at that point I 899 00:41:48,829 --> 00:41:46,680 started to recall that the greatest 900 00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:48,839 influence on me at that point in my life 901 00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:51,030 and I think looking back on it still in 902 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:55,049 terms of science philosophy a matrix 903 00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:57,450 through which to see human behavior 904 00:42:03,470 --> 00:42:01,200 through was the extraordinary work and 905 00:42:06,319 --> 00:42:03,480 writings of a much maligned much of 906 00:42:08,750 --> 00:42:06,329 misunderstood millennial genius and I 907 00:42:12,849 --> 00:42:08,760 don't use that term lightly named dr. 908 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:12,859 Wilhelm Reich an Austrian 909 00:42:19,299 --> 00:42:16,130 austro-hungarian originally physician 910 00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:19,309 psychiatrist research scientist and 911 00:42:23,809 --> 00:42:22,200 social observer who I was fortunate 912 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:23,819 enough to first read when I was still a 913 00:42:30,140 --> 00:42:27,210 teenager and at the time I I could have 914 00:42:33,019 --> 00:42:30,150 cared less that it was just a footnote 915 00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:33,029 that toward the end of his life in the 916 00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:35,400 early 50s he observed UFOs over his 917 00:42:41,180 --> 00:42:39,359 property in Maine and the advice that he 918 00:42:43,220 --> 00:42:41,190 developed for weather modification that 919 00:42:44,990 --> 00:42:43,230 works brilliantly and should be in use 920 00:42:47,630 --> 00:42:45,000 all over the world fighting desert off' 921 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:47,640 occasion but isn't that I have actually 922 00:42:53,660 --> 00:42:49,410 seen operated and produced remarkable 923 00:42:56,029 --> 00:42:53,670 results in the sky above me that he 924 00:42:59,450 --> 00:42:56,039 wrote about UFOs and that there were 925 00:43:01,640 --> 00:42:59,460 therapists who had been trained by him 926 00:43:05,329 --> 00:43:01,650 who were still alive this was the 70s he 927 00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:05,339 died in the 50s and much to my shock 928 00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:06,430 I learned that his 929 00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:08,950 former first assistant for the last 11 930 00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:10,089 years of his life 931 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:12,640 a brilliant psychotherapist named dr. 932 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:15,010 Ellsworth F Baker was still alive and 933 00:43:20,579 --> 00:43:17,290 practicing he was well into 70s but he 934 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:20,589 was a live and well and practicing the 935 00:43:26,099 --> 00:43:23,770 method not reichian therapy but what 936 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:26,109 Reich term medical or bone therapy a 937 00:43:31,950 --> 00:43:29,050 very hyper specific way to approach 938 00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:31,960 human dysfunction and I thought this is 939 00:43:36,299 --> 00:43:34,960 the guy I need to talk to and there he 940 00:43:38,849 --> 00:43:36,309 was in the New York phone book and I 941 00:43:40,650 --> 00:43:38,859 cold called him not even thinking that 942 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:40,660 he was with a patient at the time I was 943 00:43:45,059 --> 00:43:43,450 so self-involved and he was very 944 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:45,069 professional on the phone asked me to 945 00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:48,010 call back this time next week I did put 946 00:43:52,530 --> 00:43:49,900 me off again again again 947 00:43:54,329 --> 00:43:52,540 I called him six weeks in a row I now 948 00:43:57,420 --> 00:43:54,339 know that's a method that some 949 00:44:00,380 --> 00:43:57,430 professionals use to sort out your the 950 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:00,390 level of the challenge and we probably 951 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:05,200 yeah and on that seventh call a sixth 952 00:44:11,299 --> 00:44:08,290 call he said I can see you at this time 953 00:44:13,710 --> 00:44:11,309 next week will you can you come in and 954 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:13,720 unsettled me a little bit it sounded 955 00:44:16,859 --> 00:44:15,130 almost to me like he thought that I 956 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:16,869 thought that I wanted to go into therapy 957 00:44:22,109 --> 00:44:19,450 which was not in my conscious mind I 958 00:44:24,420 --> 00:44:22,119 wanted to meet this famous guy fill him 959 00:44:26,370 --> 00:44:24,430 in on a few things and you know telling 960 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:26,380 my little story have him say yes it's 961 00:44:30,539 --> 00:44:28,450 real and I would walk out with another 962 00:44:32,549 --> 00:44:30,549 little story in my life of having that 963 00:44:35,010 --> 00:44:32,559 somebody well-known and bragging rights 964 00:44:38,370 --> 00:44:35,020 on that and it turned out to be one of 965 00:44:42,539 --> 00:44:38,380 the most memorable afternoons of my life 966 00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:42,549 I went in and I went into his office and 967 00:44:50,130 --> 00:44:46,960 he asked me why I was there and I told 968 00:44:52,890 --> 00:44:50,140 him what I had been rehearsing saying he 969 00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:52,900 said I see why are you here 970 00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:55,089 my first reaction was I thought I just 971 00:45:01,770 --> 00:44:57,880 told you so I dug it bit deeper and I 972 00:45:05,220 --> 00:45:01,780 talked about my feelings about this that 973 00:45:07,020 --> 00:45:05,230 should be enough and he asked me again 974 00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:07,030 why are you here and I looked at him and 975 00:45:14,819 --> 00:45:10,710 for reasons I cannot explain logically I 976 00:45:16,620 --> 00:45:14,829 just broke down and explained in so many 977 00:45:19,859 --> 00:45:16,630 words I was really having a lot of 978 00:45:23,009 --> 00:45:19,869 trouble integrating what I now knew 979 00:45:25,019 --> 00:45:23,019 as well as I could to be true into my 980 00:45:26,430 --> 00:45:25,029 everyday life and still obsessed with 981 00:45:31,799 --> 00:45:26,440 what happened to my sister 982 00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:31,809 and he took out a piece of paper and he 983 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:33,609 looked at me and he said two words that 984 00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:35,170 changed my life he said childhood 985 00:45:38,789 --> 00:45:37,359 diseases and I thought to myself wait a 986 00:45:41,730 --> 00:45:38,799 minute you're beginning to take a case 987 00:45:43,799 --> 00:45:41,740 history I didn't say I was mumps measles 988 00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:43,809 chicken pox tonsils out and I had my 989 00:45:49,259 --> 00:45:47,680 first session it was shattering I had 990 00:45:52,620 --> 00:45:49,269 never experienced anything like it and 991 00:45:54,690 --> 00:45:52,630 when he finished he said this place is 992 00:45:56,849 --> 00:45:54,700 open in my schedule if you are 993 00:45:59,609 --> 00:45:56,859 interested in being a patient of mine I 994 00:46:00,809 --> 00:45:59,619 need to know within 24 hours because 995 00:46:03,299 --> 00:46:00,819 there are other people that are 996 00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:03,309 interested and I thanked him very much 997 00:46:08,759 --> 00:46:05,230 assured him that I was not as a 998 00:46:11,269 --> 00:46:08,769 fascinating afternoon left woke up in 999 00:46:13,980 --> 00:46:11,279 the middle of the night set bolt upright 1000 00:46:15,809 --> 00:46:13,990 literally had to wait until nine o'clock 1001 00:46:18,180 --> 00:46:15,819 in the morning to call him and tell him 1002 00:46:19,739 --> 00:46:18,190 I had decided to do it spoke to my folks 1003 00:46:23,279 --> 00:46:19,749 about it why are you going into therapy 1004 00:46:24,779 --> 00:46:23,289 well I think I need some and for the 1005 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:24,789 next six and a half years I was his 1006 00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:28,690 patient and through dr. Baker met so 1007 00:46:34,769 --> 00:46:31,089 many people that knew and work with dr. 1008 00:46:38,839 --> 00:46:34,779 Reich became very much in part the 1009 00:46:42,559 --> 00:46:38,849 person I am now with resources to spare 1010 00:46:45,870 --> 00:46:42,569 function extremely well in high anxiety 1011 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:45,880 situations we'll always remember 1012 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:49,450 dr. Baker with tremendous gratitude for 1013 00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:51,970 what he helped me achieve in terms of my 1014 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:54,910 own functioning and something that I 1015 00:47:00,420 --> 00:46:56,890 think in many ways keeps me young vital 1016 00:47:02,220 --> 00:47:00,430 alive and very involved in my life with 1017 00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:02,230 room to spare to be there for other 1018 00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:05,200 people as well absolutely absolutely ok 1019 00:47:10,109 --> 00:47:08,529 what I'd like to do now and I don't 1020 00:47:11,970 --> 00:47:10,119 think we can do an interview with you 1021 00:47:17,819 --> 00:47:11,980 Peter without discussing the Larry 1022 00:47:21,809 --> 00:47:17,829 Warren case and I've always wondered why 1023 00:47:25,349 --> 00:47:21,819 what do you think he picked on you and I 1024 00:47:27,029 --> 00:47:25,359 used the word picked for a reason 1025 00:47:30,059 --> 00:47:27,039 because I think he did pick on you 1026 00:47:31,780 --> 00:47:30,069 because I think that he knew the kind of 1027 00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:31,790 person that you was 1028 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:33,680 that you are sorry I apologize for that 1029 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:36,410 but slip of the tongue well I think 1030 00:47:41,380 --> 00:47:38,210 you're absolutely right 1031 00:47:47,110 --> 00:47:41,390 the fact is my history with Larry is 1032 00:47:50,130 --> 00:47:47,120 that we met very briefly in 1984 I 1033 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:50,140 believe it was the spring and the 1034 00:47:56,380 --> 00:47:53,170 Rendlesham forest case as we all know 1035 00:47:57,850 --> 00:47:56,390 broke in early October through the 1036 00:47:59,170 --> 00:47:57,860 tremendous coverage of the now-defunct 1037 00:48:01,360 --> 00:47:59,180 News of the World 1038 00:48:04,690 --> 00:48:01,370 I am I remember that Edlund Pete's are 1039 00:48:06,190 --> 00:48:04,700 very much I bought that paper notes with 1040 00:48:09,340 --> 00:48:06,200 me I don't remember it of course being 1041 00:48:19,930 --> 00:48:09,350 in the US but - all running around 1042 00:48:21,310 --> 00:48:19,940 without my guys I was fascinated by was 1043 00:48:23,730 --> 00:48:21,320 it's official 1044 00:48:27,130 --> 00:48:23,740 underneath the headland yeah absolutely 1045 00:48:29,890 --> 00:48:27,140 fascinated me absolutely gentlemen no no 1046 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:29,900 and this is important stuff I remember 1047 00:48:34,330 --> 00:48:32,330 the first time I saw the headline which 1048 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:34,340 was not just interrupt you there P James 1049 00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:35,930 I am sorry but there's a little thing 1050 00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:38,080 I'd like to say we we had a local guy 1051 00:48:49,180 --> 00:48:46,780 put money on and I'm Ana serious amount 1052 00:48:53,350 --> 00:48:49,190 of money I'm not talking you know $5 or 1053 00:48:56,050 --> 00:48:53,360 $10 a serious amount of money that UFOs 1054 00:48:58,330 --> 00:48:56,060 were real aliens etc and when the 1055 00:49:00,210 --> 00:48:58,340 headline came out there was literally a 1056 00:49:03,730 --> 00:49:00,220 knock at my door one day 1057 00:49:06,910 --> 00:49:03,740 and I owned it and he stood there with 1058 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:06,920 that newspaper and he took that to the 1059 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:09,290 bookies to the bookmaker his own way I 1060 00:49:25,180 --> 00:49:23,570 want my money out so retreating didn't 1061 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:25,190 say anything you stood there with the 1062 00:49:29,590 --> 00:49:27,890 newspaper in his hands and it was as 1063 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:29,600 Chris pointed out it was the bit 1064 00:49:34,570 --> 00:49:32,690 underneath when he said it's official it 1065 00:49:36,430 --> 00:49:34,580 was that that grabbed him you know 1066 00:49:38,650 --> 00:49:36,440 so I'm sorry - into the police county oh 1067 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:38,660 no no and placed it and again because 1068 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:41,930 I'm rattling on here I know I'm your 1069 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:42,530 guest 1070 00:49:49,140 --> 00:49:45,729 but please interrupt me at any juncture 1071 00:49:52,349 --> 00:49:49,150 you know this is our show not my show no 1072 00:49:54,299 --> 00:49:52,359 this no Peter this is it's inside Outer 1073 00:49:57,089 --> 00:49:54,309 Limits footage you're sure 1074 00:49:58,589 --> 00:49:57,099 because discussing with you about 1075 00:50:00,239 --> 00:49:58,599 various items and we're not gonna 1076 00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:00,249 concentrate on the line war and we've 1077 00:50:04,890 --> 00:50:01,660 got all the things we want to talk about 1078 00:50:07,349 --> 00:50:04,900 yeah don't don't let me make it a 1079 00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:07,359 monologue then and jump in and ever even 1080 00:50:12,989 --> 00:50:10,089 mid-sentence it's I prefer that actually 1081 00:50:16,019 --> 00:50:12,999 but very briefly this was at a time of a 1082 00:50:17,789 --> 00:50:16,029 famous UFO series of incidents that 1083 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:17,799 you're both familiar with the so called 1084 00:50:24,029 --> 00:50:20,729 Westchester triangle craft overflights 1085 00:50:26,759 --> 00:50:24,039 Westchester a wonderful one of countless 1086 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:26,769 anglo-saxon place names in the states is 1087 00:50:36,779 --> 00:50:29,890 a county just north of New York City and 1088 00:50:38,969 --> 00:50:36,789 in 63 six re 83 84 there was a of 1089 00:50:40,949 --> 00:50:38,979 overflights of large triangular craft 1090 00:50:43,289 --> 00:50:40,959 like the ones being seen in Belgium I 1091 00:50:46,529 --> 00:50:43,299 believe about the same time whether they 1092 00:50:49,229 --> 00:50:46,539 were ours or theirs is still open to 1093 00:50:51,479 --> 00:50:49,239 speculation however it was the beginning 1094 00:50:55,499 --> 00:50:51,489 of the video revolution and a lot of 1095 00:50:58,199 --> 00:50:55,509 people had cameras especially in a more 1096 00:51:00,959 --> 00:50:58,209 upscale borough or County like 1097 00:51:03,809 --> 00:51:00,969 Westchester and so footage was starting 1098 00:51:07,739 --> 00:51:03,819 to appear of these formations and these 1099 00:51:11,429 --> 00:51:07,749 rather fantastic craft it got to the 1100 00:51:13,919 --> 00:51:11,439 point where the local people were were 1101 00:51:17,399 --> 00:51:13,929 so caught up in this and so hungry for 1102 00:51:20,399 --> 00:51:17,409 answers that they had a huge Town 1103 00:51:22,589 --> 00:51:20,409 Meeting in the largest venue available 1104 00:51:27,870 --> 00:51:22,599 which was the auditorium of the local 1105 00:51:29,909 --> 00:51:27,880 high school and myself I went with one 1106 00:51:33,299 --> 00:51:29,919 of my earliest colleagues in the work 1107 00:51:35,579 --> 00:51:33,309 Antonio who næss who if anybody out 1108 00:51:37,529 --> 00:51:35,589 there knows the whereabouts of now I'm 1109 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:37,539 trying to chase down he is an old friend 1110 00:51:41,969 --> 00:51:39,130 and he's kind of disappeared off the map 1111 00:51:44,729 --> 00:51:41,979 and we drove there with people is Ola 1112 00:51:47,909 --> 00:51:44,739 are one of our mentors and the New York 1113 00:51:49,979 --> 00:51:47,919 City police detective who was the 1114 00:51:54,149 --> 00:51:49,989 brilliant the UFO investigator who 1115 00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:54,159 helped train me it was the one time that 1116 00:51:58,650 --> 00:51:55,689 I met dr. Allen Hynek 1117 00:52:01,710 --> 00:51:58,660 he was there interestingly with least 1118 00:52:05,130 --> 00:52:01,720 was there and this was three years 1119 00:52:08,010 --> 00:52:05,140 before he became a known personality in 1120 00:52:10,050 --> 00:52:08,020 the work with the publication of 1121 00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:10,060 communion but things were happening to 1122 00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:11,830 Italy and he was pointed out to me as 1123 00:52:16,710 --> 00:52:14,110 this well-known American writer it's a 1124 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:16,720 beautiful afternoon and a fascinating 1125 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:19,450 event one after another the housewife a 1126 00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:22,690 farmer a librarian an office worker 1127 00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:25,540 would be up on stage talking about what 1128 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:30,430 they had seen people who had small farms 1129 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:32,530 or lived in rural enough areas to have 1130 00:52:36,930 --> 00:52:35,050 animals of some appreciable size talked 1131 00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:36,940 about animal reactions when these things 1132 00:52:42,450 --> 00:52:39,280 appeared over their homes footage was 1133 00:52:44,310 --> 00:52:42,460 shown anyway a certain point a break was 1134 00:52:47,250 --> 00:52:44,320 declared and I went outside to grab a 1135 00:52:49,230 --> 00:52:47,260 smoke and I noticed there was a knot of 1136 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:49,240 people out on the lawn and out of 1137 00:52:53,610 --> 00:52:51,850 curiosity I sort of followed it and I 1138 00:52:55,290 --> 00:52:53,620 got to the edges of it and I saw that 1139 00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:55,300 there were people standing around a 1140 00:53:01,620 --> 00:52:58,240 rather earnest young man with a young 1141 00:53:04,890 --> 00:53:01,630 face and they were asking questions and 1142 00:53:07,230 --> 00:53:04,900 he was responding rather politely and 1143 00:53:08,910 --> 00:53:07,240 answering as he seemed to be able to 1144 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:08,920 their questions and it only took a few 1145 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:12,370 questions for me to realize whoa this is 1146 00:53:18,810 --> 00:53:13,930 that guy 1147 00:53:22,380 --> 00:53:18,820 that came forward the American airman 1148 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:22,390 who broke the story that I learned about 1149 00:53:27,930 --> 00:53:25,930 in December but of course the world 1150 00:53:31,290 --> 00:53:27,940 learned about in November through the 1151 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:31,300 publication and news of the world and I 1152 00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:33,010 stayed there till the end listening to 1153 00:53:38,490 --> 00:53:35,920 the questions and things he seemed again 1154 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:38,500 very earnest and straightforward and at 1155 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:40,330 a certain point somebody came out the 1156 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:41,890 door and said we're beginning again and 1157 00:53:47,940 --> 00:53:44,650 everybody drifted away and started back 1158 00:53:49,830 --> 00:53:47,950 into the high school for whatever reason 1159 00:53:53,550 --> 00:53:49,840 and Larry and I both remember this very 1160 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:53,560 well I waited and tell everybody was 1161 00:53:55,830 --> 00:53:54,010 gone 1162 00:53:57,870 --> 00:53:55,840 and he looked at me and I looked at him 1163 00:54:00,120 --> 00:53:57,880 I kind of [\h__\h] like that 1164 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:00,130 thinking this guy either has to be 1165 00:54:07,470 --> 00:54:04,570 incredibly courageous or really naive or 1166 00:54:10,050 --> 00:54:07,480 the best liar in the world because I'm 1167 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:10,060 buying what he's saying and I just 1168 00:54:12,039 --> 00:54:11,410 looked at him and I smiled I put out my 1169 00:54:14,169 --> 00:54:12,049 hand I said 1170 00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:14,179 like we shook hands and he said thanks 1171 00:54:21,729 --> 00:54:17,839 man and that was that three or four 1172 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:21,739 years later when we met in earnest it 1173 00:54:30,279 --> 00:54:27,170 was in the summer of 1987 I was 1174 00:54:31,749 --> 00:54:30,289 attending the 40th anniversary of 1175 00:54:34,839 --> 00:54:31,759 Roswell Kenneth Arnold 1176 00:54:37,660 --> 00:54:34,849 MUFON conference that was held at 1177 00:54:41,039 --> 00:54:37,670 American University in Washington DC and 1178 00:54:44,709 --> 00:54:41,049 it was a very big deal more so than most 1179 00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:44,719 UFO conferences partially because the 1180 00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:46,880 location partially cost the anniversary 1181 00:54:51,999 --> 00:54:49,609 but one of the speaker's was this 1182 00:54:56,140 --> 00:54:52,009 alleged witness to Rendlesham named 1183 00:54:57,849 --> 00:54:56,150 Larry Warren and I heard him speak and 1184 00:55:00,729 --> 00:54:57,859 he was stopped part of the way through 1185 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:00,739 he maintains that it was because MUFON 1186 00:55:06,699 --> 00:55:03,410 wanted to shut him up I think that's 1187 00:55:08,589 --> 00:55:06,709 possible I also think that whoever was 1188 00:55:10,929 --> 00:55:08,599 on timekeeping wasn't doing a good job 1189 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:10,939 because everybody was running a little 1190 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:12,650 late and maybe he was the guy they 1191 00:55:20,529 --> 00:55:16,729 decided to take time off of bottom line 1192 00:55:23,380 --> 00:55:20,539 though is I heard him speak and he 1193 00:55:25,299 --> 00:55:23,390 invited people out into the hall to let 1194 00:55:26,979 --> 00:55:25,309 him finish speak and a number of us 1195 00:55:28,689 --> 00:55:26,989 followed him and I heard him out and 1196 00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:28,699 thought wow I want to do an interview 1197 00:55:34,179 --> 00:55:29,599 with this guy 1198 00:55:36,699 --> 00:55:34,189 later that day dr. David Jacobs chaired 1199 00:55:39,029 --> 00:55:36,709 a very interesting panel discussion with 1200 00:55:40,589 --> 00:55:39,039 Whitley whose book had just come out 1201 00:55:43,929 --> 00:55:40,599 myself 1202 00:55:47,410 --> 00:55:43,939 representing people I grew up with a 1203 00:55:50,709 --> 00:55:47,420 sibling who was um had you abduction 1204 00:55:52,449 --> 00:55:50,719 experiences Debby Jordan was there the 1205 00:55:54,489 --> 00:55:52,459 subject of Budd Hopkins new book 1206 00:55:57,069 --> 00:55:54,499 intruders and so on 1207 00:55:59,140 --> 00:55:57,079 and Larry heard me speak on the Sunday 1208 00:56:00,759 --> 00:55:59,150 afternoon has happened sometimes we 1209 00:56:02,859 --> 00:56:00,769 simply ran each other in to each other 1210 00:56:06,039 --> 00:56:02,869 in the hallway with very different 1211 00:56:07,359 --> 00:56:06,049 agendas as he told me after the fact he 1212 00:56:08,709 --> 00:56:07,369 had heard me speak and even though I 1213 00:56:12,009 --> 00:56:08,719 wasn't well-known and hadn't written 1214 00:56:13,660 --> 00:56:12,019 anything except articles he knew I was 1215 00:56:16,299 --> 00:56:13,670 the guy he wanted to write the book with 1216 00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:16,309 because I was so sincere and I obviously 1217 00:56:21,479 --> 00:56:18,799 had a feeling for this and love my 1218 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:21,489 sister who had been through this and I 1219 00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:24,210 wanted to do an interview and 1220 00:56:28,790 --> 00:56:26,880 one way or the other I forget who 1221 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:28,800 initiated when can we get together I 1222 00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:31,050 guess it was me cuz he said how about 1223 00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:33,480 next weekend which was the fourth of 1224 00:56:39,050 --> 00:56:35,760 July weekend as I recall he came to New 1225 00:56:39,620 --> 00:56:39,060 York City and basically moved in for the 1226 00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:39,630 weekend 1227 00:56:43,930 --> 00:56:41,910 I had the best interview I had ever done 1228 00:56:46,580 --> 00:56:43,940 with anybody it went on for hours and 1229 00:56:48,020 --> 00:56:46,590 later that Sunday afternoon I said 1230 00:56:49,580 --> 00:56:48,030 what's your angle here you've just given 1231 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:49,590 me this great interview you don't want 1232 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:51,690 any money you've told me I can publish 1233 00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:54,570 it he said I I I do have an ulterior 1234 00:56:57,530 --> 00:56:55,410 motive 1235 00:56:59,120 --> 00:56:57,540 I want to write a book about this I know 1236 00:57:01,520 --> 00:56:59,130 I'm never gonna do it on my own 1237 00:57:05,060 --> 00:57:01,530 I think you're the guy to do it with my 1238 00:57:06,770 --> 00:57:05,070 terms would be simple you know we work 1239 00:57:10,220 --> 00:57:06,780 together if you can't prove me wrong 1240 00:57:11,630 --> 00:57:10,230 then back me up and you know well if we 1241 00:57:13,310 --> 00:57:11,640 get the thing done we'll split what it 1242 00:57:15,410 --> 00:57:13,320 makes and I thought oh that sounds 1243 00:57:16,330 --> 00:57:15,420 straightforward enough we shook hands on 1244 00:57:18,770 --> 00:57:16,340 him I 1245 00:57:21,260 --> 00:57:18,780 anybody that has a copy of left at 1246 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:21,270 Eastgate parts of which I will always be 1247 00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:27,650 eternally proud of parts of which not so 1248 00:57:34,730 --> 00:57:31,920 knows or can refresh their minds or read 1249 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:34,740 it for the first time and see that I had 1250 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:37,770 doubts here and there but he was so 1251 00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:40,650 earnest and so sincere 1252 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:44,160 and you know he if he had been through 1253 00:57:48,020 --> 00:57:46,050 what he had been through post-traumatic 1254 00:57:50,210 --> 00:57:48,030 stress would apply he had been worked 1255 00:57:53,090 --> 00:57:50,220 over by the government I could cut him 1256 00:57:55,340 --> 00:57:53,100 slack where everything changed and I 1257 00:57:57,380 --> 00:57:55,350 said I've gotta back him I I just you 1258 00:57:59,690 --> 00:57:57,390 know it's either do it or don't do it 1259 00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,700 was when we went to England for the 1260 00:58:03,380 --> 00:58:01,440 first time I thought it's gonna be our 1261 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:03,390 only time and that was in February of 88 1262 00:58:08,570 --> 00:58:07,410 we spent a week on location we had next 1263 00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:08,580 to the thing that happened with my 1264 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:09,200 sister 1265 00:58:16,730 --> 00:58:12,450 the most memorable UFO event of my life 1266 00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:16,740 which was multiple which went on for an 1267 00:58:20,060 --> 00:58:18,300 hour and a half was still going on when 1268 00:58:21,980 --> 00:58:20,070 we walked out of the area it was our 1269 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:21,990 first night there who was going to 1270 00:58:28,220 --> 00:58:24,810 believe it five six miles away from the 1271 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:28,230 event and so I cut too much slack after 1272 00:58:33,740 --> 00:58:31,050 the fact but I know now he started lying 1273 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:33,750 to me immediately number one for example 1274 00:58:37,339 --> 00:58:35,970 on one of his first visits he mentioned 1275 00:58:39,380 --> 00:58:37,349 casually that he 1276 00:58:41,630 --> 00:58:39,390 had a master's degree in communication 1277 00:58:42,380 --> 00:58:41,640 from the University of Connecticut well 1278 00:58:43,969 --> 00:58:42,390 fine 1279 00:58:47,420 --> 00:58:43,979 good I didn't ask but that's nice to 1280 00:58:49,549 --> 00:58:47,430 know over the next year or two I 1281 00:58:53,059 --> 00:58:49,559 realized from understanding his timeline 1282 00:58:55,969 --> 00:58:53,069 that he never had a chance in his 1283 00:58:57,559 --> 00:58:55,979 schedule to have gotten that degree but 1284 00:59:00,950 --> 00:58:57,569 I thought I was nervous he wanted to 1285 00:59:04,819 --> 00:59:00,960 impress me whatever I through my sister 1286 00:59:06,969 --> 00:59:04,829 I introduced him to some people in the 1287 00:59:11,059 --> 00:59:06,979 world of popular music which he adores 1288 00:59:13,390 --> 00:59:11,069 and Helen I think or was it Phoebe snow 1289 00:59:16,099 --> 00:59:13,400 the late Phoebe snow a dear friend 1290 00:59:18,229 --> 00:59:16,109 introduced him to Mei pang a name that 1291 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:18,239 for John Lennon enthusiasts may ring a 1292 00:59:22,009 --> 00:59:18,690 bell 1293 00:59:24,499 --> 00:59:22,019 because May was John's girlfriend for 1294 00:59:26,839 --> 00:59:24,509 the 18 or so months he was not with Yoko 1295 00:59:31,460 --> 00:59:26,849 in the course of their relationship 1296 00:59:35,690 --> 00:59:31,470 I knew May in passing very nice mmm 1297 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:35,700 quiet gal who lived a few blocks north 1298 00:59:41,299 --> 00:59:38,450 of me in the East 40s in New York and 1299 00:59:43,459 --> 00:59:41,309 Larry alleged that he started an affair 1300 00:59:46,190 --> 00:59:43,469 with her well I never asked me about it 1301 00:59:49,249 --> 00:59:46,200 but my thought was cool good you know 1302 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:49,259 he'd come and go and at the end he said 1303 00:59:54,529 --> 00:59:51,450 it broke up it wasn't nice but she was 1304 00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:54,539 kind enough to have given him a raincoat 1305 00:59:58,989 --> 00:59:56,160 and a pair of sunglasses that belonged 1306 01:00:02,569 --> 00:59:58,999 to John Lennon this would have been 1988 1307 01:00:05,690 --> 01:00:02,579 my vitamins I sold several times now at 1308 01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:05,700 Lee yeah well my first thought again 1309 01:00:12,709 --> 01:00:08,210 being me was Wow how cool is that and 1310 01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:12,719 introduced him to the only store in New 1311 01:00:16,339 --> 01:00:14,640 York at the time that I'm aware of that 1312 01:00:19,069 --> 01:00:16,349 was dealing in rock and roll memorabilia 1313 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:19,079 which was just beginning to have a 1314 01:00:24,259 --> 01:00:22,170 market he got in early and started to 1315 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:24,269 make part of his living doing that what 1316 01:00:31,309 --> 01:00:28,890 we now know is last year when allegedly 1317 01:00:33,979 --> 01:00:31,319 he put yet another pair of John Lennon 1318 01:00:36,999 --> 01:00:33,989 sunglasses up for auction with 1319 01:00:39,109 --> 01:00:37,009 completely fake provenance from a pang 1320 01:00:41,749 --> 01:00:39,119 unfortunately for Larry a friend of 1321 01:00:44,569 --> 01:00:41,759 May's saw it in the auction catalog 1322 01:00:47,150 --> 01:00:44,579 called it to her attention and she made 1323 01:00:49,969 --> 01:00:47,160 a very public statement that she never 1324 01:00:51,250 --> 01:00:49,979 gave anything of John's to Larry's in 1325 01:00:58,750 --> 01:00:51,260 her life 1326 01:01:00,920 --> 01:00:58,760 this burn my ass he had two items 1327 01:01:02,810 --> 01:01:00,930 announcement cards from the old theatre 1328 01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:02,820 company I had worked with when my sister 1329 01:01:08,900 --> 01:01:06,990 Ellen was one of our actors for big 1330 01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:08,910 opening night parties that had little 1331 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:10,650 rubber stamps on them that I had created 1332 01:01:16,070 --> 01:01:14,010 after Helen passed from the estate of 1333 01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:16,080 Helen wheels my sisters performing name 1334 01:01:21,950 --> 01:01:19,530 and I gave them to him as mementos of my 1335 01:01:24,410 --> 01:01:21,960 sister who he had said that he loved and 1336 01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:24,420 who was like a sister to him and blah 1337 01:01:27,140 --> 01:01:25,200 blah blah 1338 01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:27,150 they were now filled with signatures 1339 01:01:33,860 --> 01:01:29,310 including her fake signature Katharine 1340 01:01:37,370 --> 01:01:33,870 Hepburn's Andy Warhol's all fake all 1341 01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:37,380 complete bull I seem to remember PTU 1342 01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:40,170 stating and that Katharine Hepburn 1343 01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:41,970 wasn't even there is that correct 1344 01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:44,570 oh no and neither was Andy Warhol and 1345 01:01:50,510 --> 01:01:48,000 miss Hepburn was in her 80s at that time 1346 01:01:54,500 --> 01:01:50,520 she'd not did not go to the limelight 1347 01:01:56,900 --> 01:01:54,510 nightclub which was like studio 54 this 1348 01:01:59,420 --> 01:01:56,910 was not authentic plus she was famous 1349 01:02:02,840 --> 01:01:59,430 for not signing autographs and it was 1350 01:02:05,060 --> 01:02:02,850 not her signature Andy Warhol was never 1351 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:05,070 involved in any of our theater things 1352 01:02:09,470 --> 01:02:07,410 although many famous people were and he 1353 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:09,480 hadn't drawn a little soup can next to 1354 01:02:16,070 --> 01:02:12,570 his name since the 1960s but that didn't 1355 01:02:19,010 --> 01:02:16,080 stop our wonderful forger and that is 1356 01:02:24,050 --> 01:02:19,020 Larry he is a nun convicted a forger 1357 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:24,060 among other things that are very sad and 1358 01:02:27,620 --> 01:02:26,370 and very true about him absolutely 1359 01:02:29,330 --> 01:02:27,630 absolutely 1360 01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:29,340 I think Phillips got a question he 1361 01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:31,680 wanted to ask you assai glory 1362 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:33,810 let's put Lonnie to one side people 1363 01:02:39,950 --> 01:02:37,650 please I you know and look at the what 1364 01:02:42,890 --> 01:02:39,960 we week term it the RFI the Rendlesham 1365 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:42,900 forest in Geneva Nexus and there's been 1366 01:02:48,610 --> 01:02:45,330 a lot of discussion and speculation of 1367 01:02:51,980 --> 01:02:48,620 what may or may not have happened there 1368 01:02:53,390 --> 01:02:51,990 especially as far as Penniston and 1369 01:02:55,390 --> 01:02:53,400 Burroughs are concerned I mean I 1370 01:02:59,410 --> 01:02:55,400 personally think these gentlemen added 1371 01:03:01,970 --> 01:02:59,420 you know an anomalous experience and 1372 01:03:04,290 --> 01:03:01,980 thanks to Chris recently got the chance 1373 01:03:06,150 --> 01:03:04,300 after many years to listen Duke 1374 01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:06,160 all in person I'd only ever met him for 1375 01:03:11,070 --> 01:03:09,760 about three minutes previously but when 1376 01:03:16,500 --> 01:03:11,080 you look at the Rendlesham forest 1377 01:03:19,290 --> 01:03:16,510 incident in if you can as a whole what 1378 01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:19,300 do you think took place over those few 1379 01:03:25,110 --> 01:03:22,210 days like in November 1980 I know it's 1380 01:03:26,130 --> 01:03:25,120 not an easy question yeah but what's 1381 01:03:32,940 --> 01:03:26,140 your take on it 1382 01:03:35,460 --> 01:03:32,950 yeah let me say first briefly that the 1383 01:03:38,300 --> 01:03:35,470 Rendlesham forest UFO incident whatever 1384 01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:38,310 happened there remains an extremely 1385 01:03:45,630 --> 01:03:42,030 important significant well-documented 1386 01:03:48,150 --> 01:03:45,640 multiple UFO incident for listeners who 1387 01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:48,160 are not very familiar with it for 1388 01:03:52,170 --> 01:03:50,290 entry-level folks it's immediately 1389 01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:52,180 confusing because although it's referred 1390 01:03:58,410 --> 01:03:55,330 to as the Rendlesham forest UFO incident 1391 01:04:01,170 --> 01:03:58,420 it's actually a series of incidents and 1392 01:04:03,780 --> 01:04:01,180 occurrences that happened over three 1393 01:04:08,690 --> 01:04:03,790 consecutive nights between Christmas and 1394 01:04:12,780 --> 01:04:08,700 New Year's in December of 1980 in 1395 01:04:15,330 --> 01:04:12,790 suffolk east anglia and as such involved 1396 01:04:18,990 --> 01:04:15,340 different individuals at different times 1397 01:04:21,890 --> 01:04:19,000 in different locations larry has always 1398 01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:21,900 alleged that he was part of an event 1399 01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:25,330 that occurred on the third night in a 1400 01:04:32,610 --> 01:04:28,290 farmer's field called capo green and 1401 01:04:34,860 --> 01:04:32,620 although he cites I think that have to 1402 01:04:38,970 --> 01:04:34,870 go back to left at Eastgate maybe 30 or 1403 01:04:41,550 --> 01:04:38,980 40 men involved he is still yet the only 1404 01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:41,560 one who has come forward or remembered 1405 01:04:49,830 --> 01:04:45,970 or says that it happened as to the other 1406 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:49,840 events there was a time as you guys know 1407 01:04:56,670 --> 01:04:54,010 that I was one of the most I was one of 1408 01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:56,680 the people most associated with the 1409 01:05:01,830 --> 01:04:59,680 research and investigation of the case 1410 01:05:04,290 --> 01:05:01,840 I not only co-wrote left that he skate I 1411 01:05:08,190 --> 01:05:04,300 wrote two follow-up books both of which 1412 01:05:11,220 --> 01:05:08,200 I have removed from print because not 1413 01:05:13,110 --> 01:05:11,230 that they are lies but there are parts 1414 01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:13,120 of both books that are completely 1415 01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:17,770 inaccurate and rather than letting them 1416 01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:18,250 stay 1417 01:05:23,910 --> 01:05:21,970 our I followed what I encouraged our 1418 01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:23,920 publisher to do which was their own 1419 01:05:28,349 --> 01:05:25,810 investigation and if they came to the 1420 01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:28,359 same conclusions I did that parts of 1421 01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:30,130 this nonfiction book were fiction to 1422 01:05:35,609 --> 01:05:31,930 remove it from print which they did in 1423 01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:35,619 January I'm not sure Philip I'm not sure 1424 01:05:45,660 --> 01:05:39,810 I had been convinced that it was a truly 1425 01:05:48,089 --> 01:05:45,670 anomalous hard machine of advanced 1426 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:48,099 technology deductively speaking under 1427 01:05:54,410 --> 01:05:50,650 intelligent control or variations on 1428 01:05:57,150 --> 01:05:54,420 said machinery that created this I 1429 01:06:00,870 --> 01:05:57,160 rejected initially that it was some 1430 01:06:03,359 --> 01:06:00,880 psyops operation brilliantly calculated 1431 01:06:05,790 --> 01:06:03,369 to create that impression in the minds 1432 01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:05,800 of the air force personnel who were 1433 01:06:13,050 --> 01:06:10,290 directly and indirectly involved that 1434 01:06:15,599 --> 01:06:13,060 Penniston who for me emerges is one of 1435 01:06:17,970 --> 01:06:15,609 the most poignant figures in this that 1436 01:06:21,270 --> 01:06:17,980 such in Penniston and Air Force sergeant 1437 01:06:23,010 --> 01:06:21,280 involved with John Burroughs well-known 1438 01:06:26,190 --> 01:06:23,020 and respected witness on the first night 1439 01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:26,200 that on the 30th anniversary of the 1440 01:06:31,290 --> 01:06:28,570 event he stated publicly for the first 1441 01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:31,300 time although he had confided it to 1442 01:06:38,670 --> 01:06:35,410 people apparently before that that he 1443 01:06:40,950 --> 01:06:38,680 was sure that it was time travelers from 1444 01:06:44,099 --> 01:06:40,960 the future and that they had 1445 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:44,109 specifically contacted him given him a 1446 01:06:50,130 --> 01:06:47,770 long binary code that took many pages 1447 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:50,140 and was X number of hundreds of zeros 1448 01:06:56,310 --> 01:06:53,050 and ones as I recall that he remembered 1449 01:06:58,770 --> 01:06:56,320 with hyper specificity copied out into 1450 01:07:03,480 --> 01:06:58,780 his field notebook 24 hours after the 1451 01:07:06,109 --> 01:07:03,490 fact and this has still held the public 1452 01:07:07,980 --> 01:07:06,119 imagination in many cases and 1453 01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:07,990 speculation that maybe it's a code 1454 01:07:13,530 --> 01:07:10,570 within the code I have a real problem 1455 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:13,540 with that it just seems so much more 1456 01:07:19,650 --> 01:07:17,890 logical that Jim was a person tagged to 1457 01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:19,660 remember something that sounded so 1458 01:07:28,230 --> 01:07:23,200 fantastic and so outlandish that it 1459 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:28,240 would reflect less than seriously on the 1460 01:07:32,020 --> 01:07:30,570 more scientific documentation around 1461 01:07:34,750 --> 01:07:32,030 physiological change 1462 01:07:37,180 --> 01:07:34,760 is multiple witnesses and the like if 1463 01:07:40,060 --> 01:07:37,190 for me John burrows has emerged as the 1464 01:07:42,100 --> 01:07:40,070 most credible witness has certainly been 1465 01:07:45,340 --> 01:07:42,110 through hell like many of the people 1466 01:07:47,770 --> 01:07:45,350 involved were over the years associated 1467 01:07:50,430 --> 01:07:47,780 in almost health problems what I'm 1468 01:07:53,980 --> 01:07:50,440 saying here is I used to think I knew 1469 01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:53,990 but I don't know and I'm very clear on 1470 01:08:01,780 --> 01:07:57,770 that also while I wish every researcher 1471 01:08:05,410 --> 01:08:01,790 an investigator who continues serious 1472 01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:05,420 involvement in the case I will always be 1473 01:08:13,060 --> 01:08:09,170 curious about you know developments but 1474 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:13,070 I am out of it I will not be involved in 1475 01:08:20,020 --> 01:08:16,010 any more Rendlesham research I am burned 1476 01:08:22,090 --> 01:08:20,030 out on it and in a way I feel I kind of 1477 01:08:22,510 --> 01:08:22,100 canceled my ticket on it and by being so 1478 01:08:25,180 --> 01:08:22,520 naive 1479 01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:25,190 with a very manipulative alleged witness 1480 01:08:30,220 --> 01:08:28,130 that I'm much more comfortable moving 1481 01:08:34,270 --> 01:08:30,230 ahead in so many other areas of UFO 1482 01:08:36,610 --> 01:08:34,280 studies and at any given time over the 1483 01:08:39,970 --> 01:08:36,620 past few years have several projects in 1484 01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:39,980 development or being presented as well 1485 01:08:46,090 --> 01:08:43,730 as adding chapters to an anthology that 1486 01:08:46,860 --> 01:08:46,100 all have out as a book in print next 1487 01:08:49,450 --> 01:08:46,870 year 1488 01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:49,460 well that's excellent to hear absolutely 1489 01:08:52,780 --> 01:08:51,290 excellent I think everything Philip 1490 01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:52,790 wanted to ask you something else as well 1491 01:08:59,620 --> 01:08:56,810 sure yeah I mean I appreciate you moving 1492 01:09:01,420 --> 01:08:59,630 on from Rendlesham Peter I can fully 1493 01:09:03,849 --> 01:09:01,430 understand it because I've moved on from 1494 01:09:06,789 --> 01:09:03,859 a certain piece of film that did the 1495 01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:06,799 rounds in the 1990s called the alien 1496 01:09:13,450 --> 01:09:10,730 autopsy continues to haunt me yeah there 1497 01:09:15,610 --> 01:09:13,460 you go but there's a gentleman we both 1498 01:09:16,860 --> 01:09:15,620 know you knew you knew him far better 1499 01:09:19,390 --> 01:09:16,870 than I ever did 1500 01:09:22,539 --> 01:09:19,400 sadly is no longer with us and us bud 1501 01:09:25,690 --> 01:09:22,549 rod Hopkins and and I just wondered how 1502 01:09:28,450 --> 01:09:25,700 you you know met burden and and work 1503 01:09:30,099 --> 01:09:28,460 become to work so so closely with him I 1504 01:09:32,470 --> 01:09:30,109 mean I thought it was a wonderful job 1505 01:09:35,559 --> 01:09:32,480 you know yes and I you know the memories 1506 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:35,569 I have of him are all plus an extremely 1507 01:09:41,260 --> 01:09:38,210 funny I'll tell you one little story 1508 01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:41,270 before I let you and Peter I was in 1509 01:09:47,460 --> 01:09:45,040 Marseilles in France at 1510 01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:47,470 conference on bud was one of the 1511 01:09:53,579 --> 01:09:51,850 speakers so we were China way and I was 1512 01:09:55,140 --> 01:09:53,589 actually a you know on the podium 1513 01:09:57,380 --> 01:09:55,150 speaking one day when when they 1514 01:09:59,820 --> 01:09:57,390 organized and just stopped everything 1515 01:10:01,980 --> 01:09:59,830 including the people that were there and 1516 01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:01,990 there was hundreds there and just said 1517 01:10:06,210 --> 01:10:03,280 he couldn't speak a great deal of 1518 01:10:08,820 --> 01:10:06,220 English she just said follow me and it 1519 01:10:10,260 --> 01:10:08,830 was like the Pied Piper PTA we were 1520 01:10:13,890 --> 01:10:10,270 wandering down the back streets of 1521 01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:13,900 Marseille around with BOTS wandering 1522 01:10:21,980 --> 01:10:18,810 along and we eventually came to this 1523 01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:21,990 shopping center and we went upstairs 1524 01:10:29,190 --> 01:10:26,770 that was a big bookshop and this place 1525 01:10:32,480 --> 01:10:29,200 was full I mean those people sitting on 1526 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:32,490 the floor on chairs and so on and 1527 01:10:36,930 --> 01:10:34,930 there's a little stage at the front and 1528 01:10:39,420 --> 01:10:36,940 the wave me and blood forward and I said 1529 01:10:41,340 --> 01:10:39,430 to bud I think we're getting a seat near 1530 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:41,350 the front but something good going on 1531 01:10:46,860 --> 01:10:45,010 here you know us won't be known to us we 1532 01:10:50,100 --> 01:10:46,870 when the main action they put us on the 1533 01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:50,110 stage and they told the gentleman with 1534 01:10:58,100 --> 01:10:52,000 the microphone that Bob would and I 1535 01:11:04,050 --> 01:11:02,130 do was laugh you know so me and him sat 1536 01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:04,060 on this stage and this is gentleman 1537 01:11:10,290 --> 01:11:06,250 jabbering away to us in French we had no 1538 01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:10,300 idea what the hell was going on but you 1539 01:11:15,060 --> 01:11:13,570 know just for me such a in respect to be 1540 01:11:16,980 --> 01:11:15,070 busy research they just found it to be 1541 01:11:19,380 --> 01:11:16,990 such a lovely lovely guy and we're you 1542 01:11:21,390 --> 01:11:19,390 know but going back to my question you 1543 01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:21,400 know how did you get to meet what and 1544 01:11:29,190 --> 01:11:26,170 end up working with him Wow first let me 1545 01:11:31,020 --> 01:11:29,200 tell you for a fact because you and 1546 01:11:33,330 --> 01:11:31,030 butter too faced a number of times and 1547 01:11:35,340 --> 01:11:33,340 he likes you very much 1548 01:11:38,010 --> 01:11:35,350 you know nonsense you approach the 1549 01:11:39,860 --> 01:11:38,020 subject scientifically you had an 1550 01:11:43,140 --> 01:11:39,870 appreciation for culture which both 1551 01:11:46,350 --> 01:11:43,150 terribly important to him I am so 1552 01:11:48,140 --> 01:11:46,360 fortunate in so many ways I met him the 1553 01:11:52,110 --> 01:11:48,150 following way 1554 01:11:55,620 --> 01:11:52,120 about a year into my involvement at some 1555 01:11:58,110 --> 01:11:55,630 point in 1976 I'm walking down the 1556 01:11:58,770 --> 01:11:58,120 street in New York and I pass a little 1557 01:12:02,910 --> 01:11:58,780 noose 1558 01:12:04,709 --> 01:12:02,920 paper kiosk and I stopped because 1559 01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:04,719 there's a headline on one of our 1560 01:12:10,379 --> 01:12:07,690 weeklies it caught me doubly off-guard 1561 01:12:11,370 --> 01:12:10,389 because the Village Voice which no 1562 01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:11,380 longer exists 1563 01:12:20,850 --> 01:12:16,480 was for many years a progressive even 1564 01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:20,860 left primarily local political weekly 1565 01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:24,730 and certainly not that publication 1566 01:12:30,660 --> 01:12:28,090 associated with UFOs and there was a 1567 01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:30,670 headline about blah blah blah UFO and I 1568 01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:32,730 bought it and took it home and read it 1569 01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:36,489 it was about an incident that had 1570 01:12:44,189 --> 01:12:40,449 happened the year before and it was the 1571 01:12:48,799 --> 01:12:44,199 best written and best researched article 1572 01:12:53,729 --> 01:12:48,809 I had up until that time read in my 1573 01:12:56,459 --> 01:12:53,739 modest vocation as somebody interested 1574 01:12:59,549 --> 01:12:56,469 in the subject and it was written by a 1575 01:13:04,770 --> 01:12:59,559 man named Budd Hopkins well the New York 1576 01:13:07,589 --> 01:13:04,780 City art world is a small world like 1577 01:13:09,899 --> 01:13:07,599 many specialty areas and I remembered 1578 01:13:11,339 --> 01:13:09,909 that there was at the time I 1579 01:13:13,500 --> 01:13:11,349 characterize him as a leave period 1580 01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:13,510 abstract expressionist named Budd 1581 01:13:18,180 --> 01:13:15,610 Hopkins whose work I remembered from I 1582 01:13:22,109 --> 01:13:18,190 think a group show some years before but 1583 01:13:24,450 --> 01:13:22,119 with two DS and little did I know that 1584 01:13:27,959 --> 01:13:24,460 this was Budd Hopkins very first case 1585 01:13:33,660 --> 01:13:27,969 and very first article on the subject of 1586 01:13:37,459 --> 01:13:33,670 UFOs and I I basically went to a phone 1587 01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:37,469 booth and at the time this is way back 1588 01:13:42,510 --> 01:13:40,170 phone booths in New York maybe the old 1589 01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:42,520 wonderful British phone booths were 1590 01:13:46,890 --> 01:13:44,530 similarly equipped had a big phone book 1591 01:13:50,069 --> 01:13:46,900 in it and I looked him up and there was 1592 01:13:51,629 --> 01:13:50,079 only one Budd Hopkins bu D D in the New 1593 01:13:54,089 --> 01:13:51,639 York City phone book and I called called 1594 01:13:56,459 --> 01:13:54,099 him I introduced myself as a fellow 1595 01:13:58,890 --> 01:13:56,469 painter who taught painting at the 1596 01:14:02,240 --> 01:13:58,900 School of Visual Arts shared his 1597 01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:02,250 interest in UFO studies had had a 1598 01:14:07,950 --> 01:14:05,409 profoundly memorable at that point 1599 01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:07,960 sighting and whose sister seems to have 1600 01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:09,130 had an experience 1601 01:14:14,580 --> 01:14:12,970 well his very first 1602 01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:14,590 question to me and responding was tell 1603 01:14:22,770 --> 01:14:20,170 me about your artwork very different 1604 01:14:25,980 --> 01:14:22,780 traditions late period abstract 1605 01:14:29,250 --> 01:14:25,990 expressionist I a minimalist borderline 1606 01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:29,260 conceptualist not a fan but he was 1607 01:14:35,220 --> 01:14:32,890 intrigued enough and especially so about 1608 01:14:37,620 --> 01:14:35,230 Helens experience that he suggested that 1609 01:14:42,210 --> 01:14:37,630 I come by a few days hence for coffee 1610 01:14:46,140 --> 01:14:42,220 and that we chat and I knocked on that 1611 01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:46,150 door at that wonderful gray four-story 1612 01:14:53,430 --> 01:14:48,550 building that no longer exists sad to 1613 01:14:56,730 --> 01:14:53,440 say on West 16th Street and the door 1614 01:15:00,650 --> 01:14:56,740 opened and there was Budd Hopkins with a 1615 01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:00,660 much more online face and brown hair a 1616 01:15:07,740 --> 01:15:04,330 handsome smile invited me in up to the 1617 01:15:10,410 --> 01:15:07,750 second floor where the residence was and 1618 01:15:12,810 --> 01:15:10,420 we sat at his table and we had coffee 1619 01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:12,820 and we talked about art and we talked 1620 01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:15,130 about UFOs and we talked about life and 1621 01:15:20,580 --> 01:15:18,730 life in New York and I remember thinking 1622 01:15:22,260 --> 01:15:20,590 this is a great afternoon and how 1623 01:15:23,820 --> 01:15:22,270 interesting to meet this other painter 1624 01:15:26,670 --> 01:15:23,830 who's interested in the subject I should 1625 01:15:29,130 --> 01:15:26,680 also say this is a full five years 1626 01:15:33,350 --> 01:15:29,140 before he published his first book on 1627 01:15:35,700 --> 01:15:33,360 UFOs the paradigm-shifting missing time 1628 01:15:37,140 --> 01:15:35,710 which also gave a new phrase to the 1629 01:15:41,250 --> 01:15:37,150 English language 1630 01:15:45,090 --> 01:15:41,260 and I couldn't have imagined that over 1631 01:15:47,340 --> 01:15:45,100 the next 35 years we would sit at that 1632 01:15:49,350 --> 01:15:47,350 table probably several hundred times and 1633 01:15:52,500 --> 01:15:49,360 having coffee talking about the latest 1634 01:15:55,170 --> 01:15:52,510 cases or a shot of scotch his brand was 1635 01:15:59,870 --> 01:15:55,180 cutty sark an American brand that Neoga 1636 01:16:03,780 --> 01:15:59,880 have a a sentimental affection for and 1637 01:16:06,690 --> 01:16:03,790 we stayed in touch the next year or 1638 01:16:08,610 --> 01:16:06,700 later that year I contacted him again 1639 01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:08,620 and I said you know I teach painting and 1640 01:16:12,630 --> 01:16:10,570 visual arts and they're always looking 1641 01:16:15,480 --> 01:16:12,640 for quote-unquote interesting speakers 1642 01:16:17,490 --> 01:16:15,490 and I know the president of the school 1643 01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:17,500 there's still some quite a small school 1644 01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:20,890 at the time now it's it's massive and I 1645 01:16:26,700 --> 01:16:24,250 wondered I approached them would you be 1646 01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:26,710 willing to give a UFO talk there 1647 01:16:30,750 --> 01:16:28,810 with me we'll both be on the stage 1648 01:16:32,130 --> 01:16:30,760 together and you'll talk about your case 1649 01:16:38,490 --> 01:16:32,140 and I'll talk about some things I've 1650 01:16:41,610 --> 01:16:38,500 learned and so in 1977 but and I gave 1651 01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:41,620 our very first UFO talks together on the 1652 01:16:48,510 --> 01:16:45,010 stage of um the School of Visual Arts he 1653 01:16:53,220 --> 01:16:48,520 had invited the witness to his case a 1654 01:16:55,770 --> 01:16:53,230 great great tough World War two veteran 1655 01:16:58,140 --> 01:16:55,780 who had had a shattering UFO event 1656 01:17:03,000 --> 01:16:58,150 Giorgio's Barsky was his name he also 1657 01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:03,010 invited one of them the old guard NICAP 1658 01:17:10,410 --> 01:17:07,510 guys national investigations committee 1659 01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:10,420 on Mariel phenomen aerial phenomena no 1660 01:17:15,660 --> 01:17:13,090 longer in existence named dick rule so 1661 01:17:18,300 --> 01:17:15,670 the four of us gave our talks and we 1662 01:17:20,940 --> 01:17:18,310 continued to meet he met Helen he 1663 01:17:23,790 --> 01:17:20,950 completed his training in hypnosis 1664 01:17:25,729 --> 01:17:23,800 Helen was an early subject of his they 1665 01:17:31,170 --> 01:17:25,739 forged their own wonderful friendship 1666 01:17:33,350 --> 01:17:31,180 and in 81 this remarkable book that was 1667 01:17:37,500 --> 01:17:33,360 the first of really the new wave of 1668 01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:37,510 scientific books backing the abduction 1669 01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:40,510 phenomenon with people some of them in 1670 01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:42,330 the book who I still stay in touch with 1671 01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:46,570 came out and his identity kind of split 1672 01:17:52,709 --> 01:17:48,730 he remained a painter 1673 01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:52,719 but he was now a noteworthy figure in 1674 01:17:56,850 --> 01:17:54,730 the UFO research community in an area 1675 01:17:59,040 --> 01:17:56,860 most people in the community were very 1676 01:18:00,420 --> 01:17:59,050 uncomfortable with as David Jacobs 1677 01:18:03,870 --> 01:18:00,430 described it to me 1678 01:18:06,330 --> 01:18:03,880 David has a very dry sense of humor at 1679 01:18:09,930 --> 01:18:06,340 that time and coming from the 70s you 1680 01:18:11,459 --> 01:18:09,940 know we all knew we being primarily a 1681 01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:11,469 bunch of middle-aged white guys who 1682 01:18:15,930 --> 01:18:13,690 wanted to be taken seriously by you know 1683 01:18:17,370 --> 01:18:15,940 the population at large you know and how 1684 01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:17,380 do you do that saying I think flying 1685 01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:21,010 saucers are from other planets that we 1686 01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:25,090 were focused on the the cars and not the 1687 01:18:32,060 --> 01:18:29,050 drivers and but was a moving force and 1688 01:18:34,740 --> 01:18:32,070 changing some of that focus after 1689 01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:34,750 intruders came out I was already working 1690 01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:37,090 for him around the office as a volunteer 1691 01:18:43,060 --> 01:18:40,010 and the studio assistant 1692 01:18:44,410 --> 01:18:43,070 his world really exploded because he was 1693 01:18:48,730 --> 01:18:44,420 now an internationally best-selling 1694 01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:48,740 writer and I put more and more of my 1695 01:18:56,230 --> 01:18:52,010 spare time into being his right-hand man 1696 01:18:59,290 --> 01:18:56,240 I probably answered more than a thousand 1697 01:19:01,120 --> 01:18:59,300 letters no exaggeration by hand because 1698 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:01,130 he insisted on that even if it would 1699 01:19:06,940 --> 01:19:04,970 seem minor he developed a code for the 1700 01:19:09,730 --> 01:19:06,950 outside of envelopes I would go through 1701 01:19:12,070 --> 01:19:09,740 them on a first read with stars and 1702 01:19:13,510 --> 01:19:12,080 asterisks and different marks indicating 1703 01:19:17,230 --> 01:19:13,520 that this was something he should get to 1704 01:19:18,580 --> 01:19:17,240 immediately ignore and maybe 100 you 1705 01:19:24,330 --> 01:19:18,590 know seemed like a dysfunctional one 1706 01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:24,340 that ratio being very low in 90 89 or 90 1707 01:19:32,410 --> 01:19:28,730 he founded the intruders foundation a 1708 01:19:35,530 --> 01:19:32,420 non-profit research and investigation 1709 01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:35,540 and outreach group to help inform the 1710 01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:37,970 public about the seriousness and the 1711 01:19:43,930 --> 01:19:40,970 reality of UFO abductions and to be 1712 01:19:46,810 --> 01:19:43,940 there to support individuals who seem to 1713 01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:46,820 have had these experiences at that point 1714 01:19:52,540 --> 01:19:49,850 a peripheral wonderfully colorful figure 1715 01:19:58,410 --> 01:19:52,550 in the work whose name might resonate 1716 01:20:02,560 --> 01:19:58,420 with you fill Prince hands hands Otto of 1717 01:20:04,170 --> 01:20:02,570 Liechtenstein I think that was his name 1718 01:20:07,090 --> 01:20:04,180 but he was royalty from Liechtenstein 1719 01:20:10,270 --> 01:20:07,100 all fascinated by the subject visited 1720 01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:10,280 New York hands Otto anyway and could 1721 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:13,010 look it up but he gave but a modest 1722 01:20:19,210 --> 01:20:15,770 grant for intruders Foundation and so 1723 01:20:21,250 --> 01:20:19,220 overnight I became a professional but 1724 01:20:23,230 --> 01:20:21,260 said you work for so many years for free 1725 01:20:25,660 --> 01:20:23,240 you are now going to be paid the 1726 01:20:29,770 --> 01:20:25,670 princely sum of $8 an hour for your work 1727 01:20:32,830 --> 01:20:29,780 so Wow I was now working for bud as a 1728 01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:32,840 paid employee the next year he upped 1729 01:20:38,620 --> 01:20:35,690 that to $10 when we ran out of money 1730 01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:38,630 that money never came back and for the 1731 01:20:42,490 --> 01:20:40,370 rest of our lives together 1732 01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:42,500 professionally I continued working for 1733 01:20:49,090 --> 01:20:45,770 him for signed copies of his newest 1734 01:20:50,950 --> 01:20:49,100 books and the great love and affection I 1735 01:20:53,470 --> 01:20:50,960 had for him as a friend and the 1736 01:20:53,830 --> 01:20:53,480 knowledge that I was doing something in 1737 01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:53,840 poor 1738 01:20:59,770 --> 01:20:56,930 assisting somebody who I knew to be a 1739 01:21:00,700 --> 01:20:59,780 great guy but who history would judge to 1740 01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:00,710 be a great man 1741 01:21:10,660 --> 01:21:06,730 and things changed in January of 2000 1742 01:21:13,150 --> 01:21:10,670 bud and my sister Helen loved each other 1743 01:21:14,770 --> 01:21:13,160 very much as friends and two more 1744 01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:14,780 different people in terms of their 1745 01:21:19,990 --> 01:21:17,690 interests and backgrounds would be hard 1746 01:21:22,870 --> 01:21:20,000 to find but they adored each other and 1747 01:21:25,210 --> 01:21:22,880 did have many things in common but even 1748 01:21:28,480 --> 01:21:25,220 came to hear Helen and her band play I 1749 01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:28,490 think twice at CBGB's he hated punk 1750 01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:31,930 music with the heat of a thousand wife 1751 01:21:38,350 --> 01:21:35,210 he was a big bad man his musical tastes 1752 01:21:39,940 --> 01:21:38,360 stopped fairly abruptly at 1980 and I 1753 01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:39,950 remember seeing him sort of bopping 1754 01:21:43,570 --> 01:21:41,930 along with the smile on his face with 1755 01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:43,580 the music blasting out of these stacks 1756 01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:46,880 of Marshall amps and you know telling me 1757 01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:48,770 the next day what a terrible headache he 1758 01:21:54,370 --> 01:21:51,050 had but that's the kind of support that 1759 01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:54,380 he gave her when Helen died he was as 1760 01:22:01,870 --> 01:21:56,810 devastated as any of our friends were 1761 01:22:05,140 --> 01:22:01,880 and I left my position there for some 1762 01:22:07,170 --> 01:22:05,150 months when I returned he had very 1763 01:22:09,490 --> 01:22:07,180 wisely trained one of our other 1764 01:22:12,310 --> 01:22:09,500 introduced Foundation board members to 1765 01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:12,320 do my work and he was doing it great and 1766 01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:13,730 I didn't want to take it away from him 1767 01:22:19,480 --> 01:22:17,090 so for the last years of his life our 1768 01:22:22,510 --> 01:22:19,490 relationship turned out turned back to 1769 01:22:25,390 --> 01:22:22,520 how it began which was every month or so 1770 01:22:28,450 --> 01:22:25,400 getting together having coffee a couple 1771 01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:28,460 of drinks going out to dinner talking 1772 01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:31,370 about the latest cases and the like when 1773 01:22:38,470 --> 01:22:35,210 he became ill and he had had kidney 1774 01:22:41,170 --> 01:22:38,480 cancer in the eighties loss of a kidney 1775 01:22:44,470 --> 01:22:41,180 but then five years clean ten years 1776 01:22:46,750 --> 01:22:44,480 clean 20 years clean if either you guys 1777 01:22:49,590 --> 01:22:46,760 come to New York City I can take you to 1778 01:22:54,220 --> 01:22:49,600 within two feet on the street corner of 1779 01:22:55,540 --> 01:22:54,230 eighth Avenue and I think 32nd Street 1780 01:22:58,600 --> 01:22:55,550 well we were standing waiting for a 1781 01:23:00,340 --> 01:22:58,610 light to change when he told me he he 1782 01:23:04,420 --> 01:23:00,350 had learned that he had cancer again and 1783 01:23:06,670 --> 01:23:04,430 as it got worse and worse I basically 1784 01:23:07,390 --> 01:23:06,680 would help clean this house come over 1785 01:23:10,870 --> 01:23:07,400 just how 1786 01:23:12,700 --> 01:23:10,880 with him goof around joke he kept his 1787 01:23:17,410 --> 01:23:12,710 sense of humor tell very close to the 1788 01:23:19,209 --> 01:23:17,420 end and had two wishes that he expressed 1789 01:23:22,750 --> 01:23:19,219 to me a few months before he died that 1790 01:23:25,359 --> 01:23:22,760 he wanted to see before he died 1791 01:23:28,750 --> 01:23:25,369 one was to lived to see his 80th 1792 01:23:32,649 --> 01:23:28,760 birthday and in fact he did that was in 1793 01:23:36,370 --> 01:23:32,659 I think mid-june and he died in April 1794 01:23:38,379 --> 01:23:36,380 21st of 2011 his second wish 1795 01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:38,389 unfortunately was to outlive Dick Cheney 1796 01:23:44,410 --> 01:23:42,770 and he didn't get that one but that did 1797 01:23:46,689 --> 01:23:44,420 make a lot of people laugh at his 1798 01:23:48,790 --> 01:23:46,699 wonderful eulogy you where I I told that 1799 01:23:51,790 --> 01:23:48,800 as one of the stories remembering him 1800 01:23:54,129 --> 01:23:51,800 I loved bud he was one of the greatest 1801 01:23:56,770 --> 01:23:54,139 teachers I've ever had one of the best 1802 01:23:59,260 --> 01:23:56,780 friends one of the closest colleagues 1803 01:24:03,160 --> 01:23:59,270 and I miss him every single day 1804 01:24:05,890 --> 01:24:03,170 but how lucky am I to have you know had 1805 01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:05,900 that opportunity and I never take it for 1806 01:24:11,500 --> 01:24:08,449 granted it enriches my life every day 1807 01:24:13,899 --> 01:24:11,510 and I'm so glad you got to spend time 1808 01:24:17,500 --> 01:24:13,909 with him and have some fun with him and 1809 01:24:20,109 --> 01:24:17,510 hang out with him as I mean I remember 1810 01:24:22,089 --> 01:24:20,119 the lake Hillary Evans raving about 1811 01:24:23,979 --> 01:24:22,099 missing time and Hillary absolutely 1812 01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:23,989 brought a copy back from the States for 1813 01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:27,170 me yes and you know I think it should be 1814 01:24:30,970 --> 01:24:29,210 compulsory for any mourning entering the 1815 01:24:32,910 --> 01:24:30,980 subject to read it it's one of the best 1816 01:24:36,399 --> 01:24:32,920 books has ever been written 1817 01:24:38,169 --> 01:24:36,409 yes I came and stayed with me when he 1818 01:24:40,419 --> 01:24:38,179 was speaking at one of the conference's 1819 01:24:42,580 --> 01:24:40,429 here and he was an artist Peter but you 1820 01:24:44,350 --> 01:24:42,590 know I'm I'm not an artist 1821 01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:44,360 I'm ignorant the our world I think you 1822 01:24:52,390 --> 01:24:50,330 even told me off once for a comment what 1823 01:24:56,260 --> 01:24:52,400 showed me some I can't remember if it 1824 01:24:58,089 --> 01:24:56,270 was a little brochure about his he's 1825 01:25:03,820 --> 01:24:58,099 some of his sculptures that he was 1826 01:25:13,359 --> 01:25:03,830 making yes and I said to him what can't 1827 01:25:15,070 --> 01:25:13,369 you do proper drawings and then it was 1828 01:25:17,709 --> 01:25:15,080 actually staying you stayed with me 1829 01:25:20,740 --> 01:25:17,719 Peter you know in battle when I do with 1830 01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:20,750 my ex-wife so well you know but 1831 01:25:25,660 --> 01:25:23,090 stay there now other blue when they were 1832 01:25:27,610 --> 01:25:25,670 little girls yeah out of the blue again 1833 01:25:30,060 --> 01:25:27,620 me from Yugoslavia turned up it was 1834 01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:30,070 still Yugoslavia name and he was called 1835 01:25:35,850 --> 01:25:33,050 Milos so I had to put him in the same 1836 01:25:38,470 --> 01:25:35,860 bedroom with buddy the odd separate beds 1837 01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:38,480 so the following morning you know my 1838 01:25:42,970 --> 01:25:41,690 Louis gets up big smile on his face and 1839 01:25:44,740 --> 01:25:42,980 I said you know what would you like for 1840 01:25:47,710 --> 01:25:44,750 breakfast and he was as you know what's 1841 01:25:49,420 --> 01:25:47,720 happy is anything half an hour like a 1842 01:25:50,860 --> 01:25:49,430 book comes down and I said you 1843 01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:50,870 everything all right bud do you sleep 1844 01:25:59,650 --> 01:25:53,330 okay and it all he said was gee that guy 1845 01:26:02,830 --> 01:25:59,660 can snore can of sums him up for me 1846 01:26:04,450 --> 01:26:02,840 Peter it really did you know every time 1847 01:26:06,340 --> 01:26:04,460 we met he always a duck he had that 1848 01:26:10,050 --> 01:26:06,350 smile didn't he had that smile on his 1849 01:26:12,130 --> 01:26:10,060 face you know he was an amazing man 1850 01:26:14,950 --> 01:26:12,140 irrespective of his involvement in this 1851 01:26:18,460 --> 01:26:14,960 subject it was an amazing man he was and 1852 01:26:21,550 --> 01:26:18,470 one of his great joys is something that 1853 01:26:25,620 --> 01:26:21,560 we shared and we had a lot that we 1854 01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:25,630 shared in common a love of history 1855 01:26:32,140 --> 01:26:29,050 coming at this this topic from 1856 01:26:34,990 --> 01:26:32,150 humanistic level much more focused on 1857 01:26:36,910 --> 01:26:35,000 the individuals that it affected then 1858 01:26:38,020 --> 01:26:36,920 you know the hyper specific 1859 01:26:40,510 --> 01:26:38,030 technicalities 1860 01:26:43,810 --> 01:26:40,520 although buds certainly had a bead on 1861 01:26:47,860 --> 01:26:43,820 that but because we both loved painting 1862 01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:47,870 and sculpture were introduced museums 1863 01:26:54,130 --> 01:26:51,290 young love museums wherever we go when 1864 01:26:55,810 --> 01:26:54,140 he was invited to speak anywhere he'd do 1865 01:26:57,700 --> 01:26:55,820 a little homework or ask the organizer 1866 01:27:00,520 --> 01:26:57,710 you know where there was a small town or 1867 01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:00,530 a large city about the local museums and 1868 01:27:06,070 --> 01:27:02,810 made sure that he had some time built in 1869 01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:06,080 where he could visit them but when he 1870 01:27:11,950 --> 01:27:09,290 was a young unknown upcoming painter he 1871 01:27:14,410 --> 01:27:11,960 had a job working as a guard at the 1872 01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:14,420 Museum of Modern Art in New York so had 1873 01:27:19,390 --> 01:27:17,330 a chance to really see that work in a 1874 01:27:23,140 --> 01:27:19,400 way that's almost a fantasy for art 1875 01:27:26,260 --> 01:27:23,150 lovers but he does he did what I still 1876 01:27:30,010 --> 01:27:26,270 do with friends either in a foreign city 1877 01:27:34,129 --> 01:27:30,020 or in your own hometown take them to the 1878 01:27:35,689 --> 01:27:34,139 museums communicate your love of this 1879 01:27:37,779 --> 01:27:35,699 certain paintings certain sculptures 1880 01:27:41,389 --> 01:27:37,789 your knowledge about certain artists 1881 01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:41,399 demystify demystify the the whole thing 1882 01:27:46,839 --> 01:27:44,610 about Modern Art make it come alive make 1883 01:27:49,669 --> 01:27:46,849 it interesting make it accessible and 1884 01:27:51,949 --> 01:27:49,679 boy do I love doing that and I never do 1885 01:27:54,229 --> 01:27:51,959 it without thinking of him and the great 1886 01:27:56,629 --> 01:27:54,239 fun of going to museums with him where 1887 01:28:01,359 --> 01:27:56,639 we would occasionally try to out you 1888 01:28:03,739 --> 01:28:01,369 know do it in some art you see me yeah I 1889 01:28:06,529 --> 01:28:03,749 know Chris wants to ask you a question 1890 01:28:09,409 --> 01:28:06,539 bagger I got a little thing in well we 1891 01:28:12,500 --> 01:28:09,419 have jumps Peter I mean I know this 1892 01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:12,510 story when you came and stayed with me 1893 01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:14,570 when you were promoting your book 1894 01:28:19,729 --> 01:28:17,130 there's a famous little incident took 1895 01:28:28,310 --> 01:28:19,739 place and he's called twelve drunks and 1896 01:28:31,879 --> 01:28:28,320 a dog cortex you're talking about 1897 01:28:32,929 --> 01:28:31,889 Larry's and my like 14 or 15 cities 1898 01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:32,939 speaking tour 1899 01:28:38,509 --> 01:28:35,130 yeah when left escape came out in the 1900 01:28:43,850 --> 01:28:38,519 summer of 97 in the UK a wonderful time 1901 01:28:46,189 --> 01:28:43,860 for Larry and I and a very exciting time 1902 01:28:49,549 --> 01:28:46,199 um when the book came out in America 1903 01:28:51,770 --> 01:28:49,559 earlier that year it did okay you know 1904 01:28:54,469 --> 01:28:51,780 no better no worse than most UFO books 1905 01:28:56,209 --> 01:28:54,479 but it came out at just the right moment 1906 01:28:59,540 --> 01:28:56,219 struck just the right pulse when it came 1907 01:29:03,649 --> 01:28:59,550 out in the UK and much to my amazement 1908 01:29:06,319 --> 01:29:03,659 shock joy it stayed on the top 10 1909 01:29:08,689 --> 01:29:06,329 best-selling book lists for a good part 1910 01:29:10,879 --> 01:29:08,699 of the summer I don't know how it is in 1911 01:29:14,359 --> 01:29:10,889 the UK now but here in the States 1912 01:29:16,279 --> 01:29:14,369 there's always two top ten list fiction 1913 01:29:17,959 --> 01:29:16,289 and nonfiction it was all the more 1914 01:29:20,179 --> 01:29:17,969 mind-blowing to me because there was 1915 01:29:22,159 --> 01:29:20,189 only one list of simply the top 10 1916 01:29:25,939 --> 01:29:22,169 best-selling and for several weeks 1917 01:29:28,189 --> 01:29:25,949 running our book was two points ahead of 1918 01:29:30,919 --> 01:29:28,199 the Taylor of Panama John Mackay Ray's 1919 01:29:32,810 --> 01:29:30,929 newest book for me that remains one of 1920 01:29:35,239 --> 01:29:32,820 the most paranormal moments in my life 1921 01:29:37,219 --> 01:29:35,249 forget about UFOs that a book that I 1922 01:29:38,810 --> 01:29:37,229 co-wrote was doing better than John will 1923 01:29:41,449 --> 01:29:38,820 care age newest book one of my favorite 1924 01:29:43,580 --> 01:29:41,459 authors so the story we spoke at many 1925 01:29:46,429 --> 01:29:43,590 different venues some of them small and 1926 01:29:47,450 --> 01:29:46,439 informal some of them large and very 1927 01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:47,460 formal the law 1928 01:29:52,610 --> 01:29:49,170 just at most Foreman was the last one 1929 01:29:55,280 --> 01:29:52,620 that dear dear Graham Birdsall God rest 1930 01:29:58,880 --> 01:29:55,290 his good soul had arranged for us at the 1931 01:30:01,100 --> 01:29:58,890 Royal College of I think science and 1932 01:30:03,050 --> 01:30:01,110 technology if I remember right in London 1933 01:30:05,900 --> 01:30:03,060 with almost a thousand people in the 1934 01:30:08,060 --> 01:30:05,910 audience the smallest and most modest 1935 01:30:10,729 --> 01:30:08,070 was one do work to put together in a 1936 01:30:12,430 --> 01:30:10,739 local pub and of course the lot of your 1937 01:30:15,290 --> 01:30:12,440 listeners know better than Americans 1938 01:30:19,100 --> 01:30:15,300 it's very much a tradition to use a back 1939 01:30:22,130 --> 01:30:19,110 room in a pub for an event you know for 1940 01:30:25,310 --> 01:30:22,140 a small venue speaking thing and we had 1941 01:30:28,370 --> 01:30:25,320 just that it was really nobody who had a 1942 01:30:33,140 --> 01:30:28,380 background or interest in UFOs it was 1943 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:33,150 about a dozen lads who were there 1944 01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:35,010 because it was a free event and why not 1945 01:30:39,890 --> 01:30:37,530 and one woman who I remember was not in 1946 01:30:43,190 --> 01:30:39,900 a good mood with a dog who was even a 1947 01:30:45,470 --> 01:30:43,200 worst mood men who were you know 1948 01:30:46,340 --> 01:30:45,480 working-class and quite tough as far as 1949 01:30:49,940 --> 01:30:46,350 I was concerned 1950 01:30:51,500 --> 01:30:49,950 drank steadily throughout our talk you 1951 01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:51,510 know calling waitress over and getting 1952 01:30:57,650 --> 01:30:55,130 another beer and stopped us repeatedly 1953 01:30:59,450 --> 01:30:57,660 not so much to ask us questions but to 1954 01:31:01,070 --> 01:30:59,460 discuss their feelings on what we were 1955 01:31:03,860 --> 01:31:01,080 talking about and then the indicating 1956 01:31:07,310 --> 01:31:03,870 that it was alright for us to go on at 1957 01:31:08,150 --> 01:31:07,320 the time I just thought just keep doing 1958 01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:08,160 what you're doing 1959 01:31:12,979 --> 01:31:10,650 be respectful you're in foreign country 1960 01:31:21,260 --> 01:31:12,989 maybe this is a tradition don't get too 1961 01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:21,270 close to the door in retrospect joyous 1962 01:31:25,970 --> 01:31:24,090 goofy little UFO associated memories I 1963 01:31:31,340 --> 01:31:25,980 have in my life and thank you forever 1964 01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:31,350 for making that happen think Rhys you 1965 01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:34,650 know just if anyone complains about you 1966 01:31:38,750 --> 01:31:36,330 know the Outer Limits magazine 1967 01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:38,760 conference in any respect you can all 1968 01:31:47,110 --> 01:31:40,770 see it well look I think that the about 1969 01:31:56,500 --> 01:31:47,120 one that Peter Robbins attend and he's 1970 01:32:01,689 --> 01:31:59,690 was sorry trying so much not to laugh 1971 01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:01,699 while he was talking about 1972 01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:07,290 it came through idea I will certainly do 1973 01:32:11,479 --> 01:32:09,810 that Phil if I ever comes to loo air be 1974 01:32:13,729 --> 01:32:11,489 the case 1975 01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:13,739 okay we've spoken about the past Peter 1976 01:32:19,250 --> 01:32:17,010 and a little bit about you know that 1977 01:32:22,459 --> 01:32:19,260 nasty message recently and that nasty 1978 01:32:24,950 --> 01:32:22,469 man lair recently you know and how do 1979 01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:24,960 you see your role today in ufology what 1980 01:32:30,500 --> 01:32:26,730 are you doing what what is what is 1981 01:32:35,209 --> 01:32:30,510 intriguing you now a number of things 1982 01:32:38,930 --> 01:32:35,219 after everything blew up for me two 1983 01:32:43,550 --> 01:32:38,940 years ago in a very real way I've spent 1984 01:32:46,810 --> 01:32:43,560 a good part of the past year and a half 1985 01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:46,820 two years seeking out and quite simply 1986 01:32:51,740 --> 01:32:49,530 apologizing to certain people for 1987 01:32:53,900 --> 01:32:51,750 misleading them unintentionally 1988 01:32:56,360 --> 01:32:53,910 well-known people in the work people 1989 01:32:59,240 --> 01:32:56,370 I'll never meet thousands of readers who 1990 01:33:02,450 --> 01:32:59,250 in great part because of my enthusiasm 1991 01:33:07,250 --> 01:33:02,460 and communication skills completely 1992 01:33:09,290 --> 01:33:07,260 bought Larry Warren's account and I I 1993 01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:09,300 think one of the tragedies is there are 1994 01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:13,770 people that are so inflamed about his 1995 01:33:20,419 --> 01:33:18,330 turn abuses so to say and and lack of 1996 01:33:22,610 --> 01:33:20,429 being completely forthcoming and 1997 01:33:25,189 --> 01:33:22,620 exaggerations that they just count 1998 01:33:27,590 --> 01:33:25,199 everything yes there are things that he 1999 01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:27,600 says in the book that are the truth 2000 01:33:34,669 --> 01:33:32,130 although I wouldn't even dare to accept 2001 01:33:37,340 --> 01:33:34,679 anything in that book without court 2002 01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:37,350 level evidence at this point that he 2003 01:33:42,189 --> 01:33:39,570 says without being able to establish it 2004 01:33:45,380 --> 01:33:42,199 beyond a reasonable doubt for myself 2005 01:33:47,810 --> 01:33:45,390 what I ended up doing was basically 2006 01:33:49,790 --> 01:33:47,820 taking stock of myself and thinking 2007 01:33:52,580 --> 01:33:49,800 where do I go from here 2008 01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:52,590 logic suggested what is interesting you 2009 01:33:58,370 --> 01:33:55,770 most about the subject and X number of 2010 01:34:01,370 --> 01:33:58,380 subjects jumped out at me ones that I 2011 01:34:03,229 --> 01:34:01,380 had explored previously to a degree and 2012 01:34:04,850 --> 01:34:03,239 thought I'm going to return to that one 2013 01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:04,860 and develop the information on it more 2014 01:34:10,490 --> 01:34:07,250 or new subjects and I'll give you a 2015 01:34:14,729 --> 01:34:10,500 cross-section of ones that I now 2016 01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:14,739 continue to develop and balance speak 2017 01:34:23,069 --> 01:34:18,610 I'm developing for again as chapter 2018 01:34:25,830 --> 01:34:23,079 material for an upcoming book and also 2019 01:34:28,709 --> 01:34:25,840 as is the case for people that get 2020 01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:28,719 involved in independent research and 2021 01:34:34,739 --> 01:34:30,610 investigation to satisfy my own 2022 01:34:36,689 --> 01:34:34,749 curiosity it occurs to many of us early 2023 01:34:39,660 --> 01:34:36,699 on when we get into the work as a 2024 01:34:41,220 --> 01:34:39,670 passing thought that we kind of make a 2025 01:34:44,939 --> 01:34:41,230 mental note of and then go on and really 2026 01:34:47,459 --> 01:34:44,949 don't come back to how the hell did the 2027 01:34:50,910 --> 01:34:47,469 idea of somebody saying I saw something 2028 01:34:54,709 --> 01:34:50,920 in the sky that I couldn't identify get 2029 01:34:59,459 --> 01:34:54,719 hardwired into the Western mind as I'm 2030 01:35:04,950 --> 01:34:59,469 crazy I'm an attention seeker I mentally 2031 01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:04,960 ill I'm a mystic I want to fool you I'm 2032 01:35:12,109 --> 01:35:08,530 a prankster or I want to write a 2033 01:35:15,979 --> 01:35:12,119 best-selling book it makes no sense 2034 01:35:20,220 --> 01:35:15,989 whatsoever in fact it's completely 2035 01:35:23,220 --> 01:35:20,230 against any logic at all how did that 2036 01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:23,230 happen I became quite obsessed with that 2037 01:35:28,109 --> 01:35:25,570 subject and kept returning to it and 2038 01:35:29,939 --> 01:35:28,119 have developed a series of papers and 2039 01:35:31,950 --> 01:35:29,949 talks and I'm sure some of your 2040 01:35:34,350 --> 01:35:31,960 listeners who are familiar with my work 2041 01:35:36,750 --> 01:35:34,360 have heard me speak about them or read 2042 01:35:37,649 --> 01:35:36,760 various articles that I've written on 2043 01:35:40,169 --> 01:35:37,659 him 2044 01:35:42,359 --> 01:35:40,179 which I call the origin of the ridicule 2045 01:35:46,819 --> 01:35:42,369 factor and it didn't happen by accident 2046 01:35:49,919 --> 01:35:46,829 it was set in motion so brilliantly 2047 01:35:55,049 --> 01:35:49,929 beginning in the very beginning of July 2048 01:35:57,569 --> 01:35:55,059 of 1947 in the United States led by the 2049 01:35:59,729 --> 01:35:57,579 most influential newspapers in the 2050 01:36:05,270 --> 01:35:59,739 country none more than the venerable New 2051 01:36:09,930 --> 01:36:05,280 York Times it was so effective and so a 2052 01:36:13,169 --> 01:36:09,940 slamming home every single day that in 2053 01:36:15,540 --> 01:36:13,179 no way shape or form is what you think 2054 01:36:19,950 --> 01:36:15,550 this might be just that outside 2055 01:36:22,109 --> 01:36:19,960 possibility of a machine of advanced 2056 01:36:23,790 --> 01:36:22,119 technology under intelligent control 2057 01:36:26,609 --> 01:36:23,800 coming and going from who knows where 2058 01:36:27,730 --> 01:36:26,619 with impunity there's no way it's that 2059 01:36:30,310 --> 01:36:27,740 folks and if you 2060 01:36:33,730 --> 01:36:30,320 believe that then you're mentally ill 2061 01:36:37,500 --> 01:36:33,740 you're weak-minded you're kind of caught 2062 01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:37,510 up in the mass hysteria quote-on-quote 2063 01:36:44,020 --> 01:36:40,970 of concern about you know the Soviets 2064 01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:44,030 who are in the summer of 1947 the 2065 01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:46,370 official beginning for certainly most 2066 01:36:52,810 --> 01:36:48,530 American historians of the so-called 2067 01:36:55,140 --> 01:36:52,820 Cold War this fear of the unknown which 2068 01:36:58,480 --> 01:36:55,150 is causing projections of the 2069 01:36:59,700 --> 01:36:58,490 unconscious even what I'm saying this 2070 01:37:02,500 --> 01:36:59,710 with a straight face 2071 01:37:05,770 --> 01:37:02,510 scientifically put forward theories by 2072 01:37:09,730 --> 01:37:05,780 unnamed scientists that it's dust on the 2073 01:37:13,870 --> 01:37:09,740 human eye that is causing these these 2074 01:37:16,030 --> 01:37:13,880 strange visions that it's us testing the 2075 01:37:19,300 --> 01:37:16,040 v2 s that we captured from the Germans 2076 01:37:22,660 --> 01:37:19,310 it's a Soviet secret weapon the fix was 2077 01:37:25,870 --> 01:37:22,670 in and certainly in America America's 2078 01:37:28,150 --> 01:37:25,880 mind was made up it was a done deal by 2079 01:37:31,690 --> 01:37:28,160 not the end of that summer not the end 2080 01:37:34,030 --> 01:37:31,700 of 47 but by the end of July at another 2081 01:37:35,650 --> 01:37:34,040 time perhaps you'll invite me back and 2082 01:37:39,100 --> 01:37:35,660 we can focus in on this subject because 2083 01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:39,110 it is fascinating but other yeah other 2084 01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:41,090 topics that I've really gotten into or 2085 01:37:47,470 --> 01:37:44,770 are in development right now include 2086 01:37:50,950 --> 01:37:47,480 cults and fundamentalist thinking and 2087 01:37:54,070 --> 01:37:50,960 how some of them have incorporated UFOs 2088 01:37:57,460 --> 01:37:54,080 into their philosophies often in very 2089 01:38:00,310 --> 01:37:57,470 dangerous ways critical thinking 2090 01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:00,320 deductive reasoning and UFOs how to use 2091 01:38:05,770 --> 01:38:02,570 your good common sense and sorting 2092 01:38:08,620 --> 01:38:05,780 through things certain specific cases 2093 01:38:12,190 --> 01:38:08,630 being primarily Russian American the 2094 01:38:15,430 --> 01:38:12,200 verrano's UFO incident right as the 2095 01:38:18,340 --> 01:38:15,440 Soviet Union was coming apart at the 2096 01:38:20,470 --> 01:38:18,350 seams in 89 and how I got personally 2097 01:38:22,930 --> 01:38:20,480 involved in that investigation with 2098 01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:22,940 researchers on the ground in the Soviet 2099 01:38:30,580 --> 01:38:27,170 Union the art of the golden age of UFOs 2100 01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:30,590 and its relationship to vintage science 2101 01:38:35,470 --> 01:38:33,290 fiction art and more important the art 2102 01:38:39,640 --> 01:38:35,480 that Illustrated the early rocketry 2103 01:38:41,470 --> 01:38:39,650 programs in the United States stress and 2104 01:38:44,460 --> 01:38:41,480 UFO studies the way that 2105 01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:44,470 would manage that a lot of work around 2106 01:38:55,630 --> 01:38:52,510 observations conclusions and deductions 2107 01:38:57,820 --> 01:38:55,640 and I'm very proud to have a foot in the 2108 01:39:01,150 --> 01:38:57,830 rykor as he termed it organ amah 2109 01:39:03,490 --> 01:39:01,160 community and in the past years have 2110 01:39:08,979 --> 01:39:03,500 spoken at International Wilhelm Reich 2111 01:39:12,210 --> 01:39:08,989 conferences in in Nice in Athens in in 2112 01:39:15,510 --> 01:39:12,220 New York in Oregon in other parts of 2113 01:39:19,360 --> 01:39:15,520 Greece including the last two summers 2114 01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:19,370 that's a whole nother area of study I'm 2115 01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:21,170 also one of the few people who have 2116 01:39:26,170 --> 01:39:24,290 designed workshops for children relative 2117 01:39:28,150 --> 01:39:26,180 to this subject always insisting that 2118 01:39:30,729 --> 01:39:28,160 you know the responsible adults be there 2119 01:39:34,750 --> 01:39:30,739 the last one I gave in the UK was ten 2120 01:39:37,710 --> 01:39:34,760 years ago at one of John downs for tiant 2121 01:39:41,790 --> 01:39:37,720 conferences which is fascinating for me 2122 01:39:43,510 --> 01:39:41,800 and my mind remains perpetually open 2123 01:39:45,820 --> 01:39:43,520 right now 2124 01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:45,830 ufology for lack of a better term is 2125 01:39:53,020 --> 01:39:50,330 that something of a crossroads it's it's 2126 01:39:55,450 --> 01:39:53,030 being damned by people from within it 2127 01:39:59,440 --> 01:39:55,460 there is I'm glad to say a new guard 2128 01:40:01,840 --> 01:39:59,450 that to some degree is rejecting a fair 2129 01:40:06,370 --> 01:40:01,850 amount of traditional UFO studies and 2130 01:40:08,320 --> 01:40:06,380 zoning in more on I would say the very 2131 01:40:12,010 --> 01:40:08,330 valuable important and fascinating work 2132 01:40:16,290 --> 01:40:12,020 on pioneers and other areas as opposed 2133 01:40:20,470 --> 01:40:16,300 to nuts and bolts like Jacques Vallee 2134 01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:20,480 who I only heard speak once and that was 2135 01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:22,970 at the United Nations name on my very 2136 01:40:32,580 --> 01:40:28,090 first UFO related research project which 2137 01:40:35,260 --> 01:40:32,590 was revolving around that series of 2138 01:40:38,020 --> 01:40:35,270 special political council meetings of 2139 01:40:40,890 --> 01:40:38,030 the General Assembly on creating the UFO 2140 01:40:43,870 --> 01:40:40,900 Study Committee which oh yes this was in 2141 01:40:45,190 --> 01:40:43,880 1978 that's right Rick and I'll just say 2142 01:40:47,710 --> 01:40:45,200 is what can I just say as well about 2143 01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:47,720 Peter the article that he provided for 2144 01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:49,489 the magazine with your memories of that 2145 01:40:54,070 --> 01:40:51,410 was absolutely fantastic 2146 01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:54,080 I'm so grateful father it was 2147 01:41:00,250 --> 01:40:56,570 kostik to read thank you that that means 2148 01:41:02,500 --> 01:41:00,260 a lot to me and it was my basic 2149 01:41:05,530 --> 01:41:02,510 christening in this work again how lucky 2150 01:41:07,930 --> 01:41:05,540 was I to be there at that point because 2151 01:41:10,420 --> 01:41:07,940 one of my mentors had been asked by the 2152 01:41:13,270 --> 01:41:10,430 then Secretary General to write a 2153 01:41:15,940 --> 01:41:13,280 position paper relative to his work 2154 01:41:19,480 --> 01:41:15,950 which revolved around a very great 2155 01:41:22,660 --> 01:41:19,490 concern of a unidentified coming into 2156 01:41:24,660 --> 01:41:22,670 American or Soviet space this in the 70s 2157 01:41:28,140 --> 01:41:24,670 height of the Cold War being 2158 01:41:32,050 --> 01:41:28,150 misidentified as an enemy ICBM and 2159 01:41:36,310 --> 01:41:32,060 triggering a nuclear conflagration I was 2160 01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:36,320 an editor on that long paper and it got 2161 01:41:43,330 --> 01:41:39,970 me in the door and had quite an 2162 01:41:45,190 --> 01:41:43,340 opportunity to begin my work in in the 2163 01:41:47,380 --> 01:41:45,200 most ideal of circumstances 2164 01:41:50,050 --> 01:41:47,390 so excellent the other thing is people 2165 01:41:52,930 --> 01:41:50,060 know I am available to think out loud to 2166 01:41:55,420 --> 01:41:52,940 I keep my confidences I'm always 2167 01:41:58,480 --> 01:41:55,430 available as my time allows to 2168 01:42:01,450 --> 01:41:58,490 experiencers and abductors 2169 01:42:04,990 --> 01:42:01,460 I am nothing if not encouraging to 2170 01:42:08,170 --> 01:42:05,000 anyone coming up in this work as my time 2171 01:42:10,510 --> 01:42:08,180 allows given the benefit of answering 2172 01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:10,520 whatever questions I can giving them 2173 01:42:15,490 --> 01:42:13,370 research materials I see my role in this 2174 01:42:18,700 --> 01:42:15,500 as an educator and somebody in the 2175 01:42:21,130 --> 01:42:18,710 trenches doing the work I have very 2176 01:42:23,110 --> 01:42:21,140 little patience for prima donnas and 2177 01:42:26,500 --> 01:42:23,120 people who demand special attention we 2178 01:42:29,050 --> 01:42:26,510 are all in this together however are so 2179 01:42:31,150 --> 01:42:29,060 well known absolutely 2180 01:42:34,050 --> 01:42:31,160 now just because we've got it we've only 2181 01:42:36,310 --> 01:42:34,060 got about 15 minutes or so left now and 2182 01:42:38,440 --> 01:42:36,320 I'm just thinking about what you said 2183 01:42:41,440 --> 01:42:38,450 about the New York Times and how it was 2184 01:42:44,590 --> 01:42:41,450 we portrayed the subject as you say 2185 01:42:47,380 --> 01:42:44,600 really from the end of July 47 that 2186 01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:47,390 article that was a front-page article on 2187 01:42:54,280 --> 01:42:50,570 December the 17th 2017 in the New York 2188 01:42:57,280 --> 01:42:54,290 Times the attic article yes we are 2189 01:42:59,410 --> 01:42:57,290 investigating actually admitting that 2190 01:43:01,540 --> 01:42:59,420 the government had lied to us since the 2191 01:43:03,790 --> 01:43:01,550 end of Project Blue Books right was your 2192 01:43:06,970 --> 01:43:03,800 take on that that must have been 2193 01:43:09,780 --> 01:43:06,980 astounding to recently surprised 2194 01:43:15,030 --> 01:43:09,790 I am the only person you will ever know 2195 01:43:18,070 --> 01:43:15,040 who has read every single article 2196 01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:18,080 editorial letter to the editor photo 2197 01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:22,570 caption commentary on the subject of 2198 01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:27,530 anomalous UFOs unknown disc-shaped craft 2199 01:43:31,810 --> 01:43:30,170 flying saucers unidentified flying 2200 01:43:34,510 --> 01:43:31,820 objects that the New York Times has ever 2201 01:43:39,300 --> 01:43:34,520 published I began that project again 2202 01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:39,310 just as a self assigned intellectual 2203 01:43:43,930 --> 01:43:42,650 exercise in the old days when I would 2204 01:43:48,660 --> 01:43:43,940 visit the New York Times newspaper 2205 01:43:52,180 --> 01:43:48,670 morgue go through their wonderful 2206 01:43:55,590 --> 01:43:52,190 Dickensian Ledger's with the double 2207 01:43:59,290 --> 01:43:55,600 references take the numbered code to the 2208 01:44:02,020 --> 01:43:59,300 librarian get the microfiche take it to 2209 01:44:05,890 --> 01:44:02,030 the Machine find the article those were 2210 01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:05,900 the days and then left it for some years 2211 01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:09,290 picked it up again and I would say and 2212 01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:12,010 this is a figure off the top of my head 2213 01:44:18,820 --> 01:44:16,610 let's say being generous 96% of the New 2214 01:44:22,330 --> 01:44:18,830 York Times coverage of this phenomenon 2215 01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:22,340 from the get-go in 1947 through to the 2216 01:44:28,770 --> 01:44:24,170 present day and I think that was the 2217 01:44:30,780 --> 01:44:28,780 last article the one from December of 17 2218 01:44:34,110 --> 01:44:30,790 that they published 2219 01:44:38,310 --> 01:44:34,120 I'd say 96% of their coverage has been 2220 01:44:42,850 --> 01:44:38,320 sarcastic condescending simplistic 2221 01:44:45,820 --> 01:44:42,860 evasive outrageous in terms of the 2222 01:44:50,260 --> 01:44:45,830 pseudo pseudo scientific explanations 2223 01:44:53,170 --> 01:44:50,270 that they ask you to take but every once 2224 01:44:56,470 --> 01:44:53,180 in a while you see something like that 2225 01:45:00,070 --> 01:44:56,480 in this case as again some of your 2226 01:45:03,040 --> 01:45:00,080 listeners know what was learned was that 2227 01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:03,050 X number of millions of dollars had been 2228 01:45:10,810 --> 01:45:07,130 allotted led by at the time a ranking 2229 01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:10,820 well-known respected American senator to 2230 01:45:16,170 --> 01:45:14,090 this study and that there were people 2231 01:45:20,620 --> 01:45:16,180 within the government who took it very 2232 01:45:23,620 --> 01:45:20,630 seriously it was also it was front page 2233 01:45:26,290 --> 01:45:23,630 but it began in a small box toward the 2234 01:45:31,390 --> 01:45:26,300 bottom of the front page then continued 2235 01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:31,400 as a full page deeper into the art into 2236 01:45:36,129 --> 01:45:34,130 the that edition of the paper the bottom 2237 01:45:38,459 --> 01:45:36,139 half being a separate article that was 2238 01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:38,469 just as surprising and just as welcome 2239 01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:42,770 of two former fighter pilots discussing 2240 01:45:50,169 --> 01:45:45,770 their experience of being scrambled and 2241 01:45:54,040 --> 01:45:50,179 climbing to make contact and not 2242 01:45:57,419 --> 01:45:54,050 pleasant contact with a anomalous craft 2243 01:46:00,610 --> 01:45:57,429 that was most certainly not ours I 2244 01:46:02,399 --> 01:46:00,620 thought in that sort of again chin 2245 01:46:05,590 --> 01:46:02,409 rubbing mr. Spock eyebrow-raising 2246 01:46:10,360 --> 01:46:05,600 fascinating captain moment that one 2247 01:46:12,430 --> 01:46:10,370 article did more to re legitimize the 2248 01:46:14,500 --> 01:46:12,440 possibility that UFOs are real and they 2249 01:46:16,810 --> 01:46:14,510 come from other places in or not you 2250 01:46:19,540 --> 01:46:16,820 know hallucinations or crazy people or 2251 01:46:23,470 --> 01:46:19,550 what-have-you and isn't that interesting 2252 01:46:26,740 --> 01:46:23,480 the media still has that power to sway 2253 01:46:29,590 --> 01:46:26,750 the public imagination and let's face it 2254 01:46:36,629 --> 01:46:29,600 things are changing but they're changing 2255 01:46:40,090 --> 01:46:36,639 at a leisurely pace the way I see it is 2256 01:46:45,910 --> 01:46:40,100 every day around the world here and 2257 01:46:48,879 --> 01:46:45,920 there 3 5 to 7 10 people have a sighting 2258 01:46:53,950 --> 01:46:48,889 of something that is so definitively not 2259 01:46:56,950 --> 01:46:53,960 of normal for their reality or have an 2260 01:46:59,800 --> 01:46:56,960 experience that whether they're public 2261 01:47:02,229 --> 01:46:59,810 about it or not they become seriously 2262 01:47:05,050 --> 01:47:02,239 interested in the subject and don't 2263 01:47:09,250 --> 01:47:05,060 automatically make fun of it for me the 2264 01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:09,260 mantra and I say this based on being out 2265 01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:11,570 there speaking at conferences speaking 2266 01:47:15,729 --> 01:47:13,850 to different people people contacting me 2267 01:47:19,899 --> 01:47:15,739 very regularly through the social 2268 01:47:23,050 --> 01:47:19,909 network I'm sure you guys too every year 2269 01:47:25,899 --> 01:47:23,060 more and more people care less and less 2270 01:47:28,379 --> 01:47:25,909 what other people think about what they 2271 01:47:30,340 --> 01:47:28,389 think about the subject of UFOs and the 2272 01:47:33,850 --> 01:47:30,350 demographic that I observed that it 2273 01:47:34,510 --> 01:47:33,860 affects most is people 50 and older who 2274 01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:34,520 just 2275 01:47:39,430 --> 01:47:37,610 care anymore about maybe ten years ago 2276 01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:39,440 they would have let's not discuss this 2277 01:47:44,110 --> 01:47:41,330 at that dinner party honey because you 2278 01:47:46,870 --> 01:47:44,120 know my boss will be there as opposed to 2279 01:47:49,030 --> 01:47:46,880 I give two blanks about what you think 2280 01:47:51,280 --> 01:47:49,040 about the subject I take it seriously 2281 01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:51,290 and if you educated yourself to a little 2282 01:47:54,310 --> 01:47:52,970 bit you might want to read this book or 2283 01:47:55,990 --> 01:47:54,320 go to this conference so look at this 2284 01:47:59,920 --> 01:47:56,000 documentary let me loan you something 2285 01:48:01,450 --> 01:47:59,930 that's good younger people overall don't 2286 01:48:05,440 --> 01:48:01,460 have a problem with it take it very 2287 01:48:08,470 --> 01:48:05,450 seriously however I and I have pulled a 2288 01:48:10,630 --> 01:48:08,480 lot of 20-somethings on this and the 2289 01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:10,640 basic opinion and began with my dear 2290 01:48:14,770 --> 01:48:13,010 niece and nephew is yeah of course it's 2291 01:48:16,900 --> 01:48:14,780 real of course the government covers up 2292 01:48:20,020 --> 01:48:16,910 of course some UFOs and machines from 2293 01:48:21,610 --> 01:48:20,030 other places you know that we can only 2294 01:48:24,990 --> 01:48:21,620 make guesses about but you have to 2295 01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:25,000 understand we are so overwhelmed with 2296 01:48:31,570 --> 01:48:27,650 technology and input and concerns about 2297 01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:31,580 our future and making a living and the 2298 01:48:34,780 --> 01:48:32,930 state that the world is going to be in 2299 01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:34,790 by the time you know that were your age 2300 01:48:39,610 --> 01:48:37,370 this is this can't be a priority for us 2301 01:48:41,980 --> 01:48:39,620 but we get it we get it and it's one of 2302 01:48:44,380 --> 01:48:41,990 the reasons we don't see a huge number I 2303 01:48:46,480 --> 01:48:44,390 believe of you know 20s and 2304 01:48:48,730 --> 01:48:46,490 30-somethings advancing into the ranks 2305 01:48:51,340 --> 01:48:48,740 of the work that we are dedicated to 2306 01:48:53,590 --> 01:48:51,350 doing although they are there and I 2307 01:48:56,650 --> 01:48:53,600 welcome every one of them absolutely and 2308 01:48:58,300 --> 01:48:56,660 ok we've got a few few moments left and 2309 01:48:58,990 --> 01:48:58,310 I just want to I've got two questions 2310 01:49:02,770 --> 01:48:59,000 for you 2311 01:49:03,310 --> 01:49:02,780 and the stars Academy what is your take 2312 01:49:04,870 --> 01:49:03,320 on that 2313 01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:04,880 if you could answer that quickly out at 2314 01:49:12,220 --> 01:49:08,810 Mount place yeah I want to say I'm 2315 01:49:16,090 --> 01:49:12,230 really excited about it and I think it's 2316 01:49:18,100 --> 01:49:16,100 a great thing I'm fascinated by it I 2317 01:49:19,570 --> 01:49:18,110 hope that they produce the results that 2318 01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:19,580 they say they're going to but I have 2319 01:49:25,090 --> 01:49:22,850 concerns if what I read in multiple 2320 01:49:28,030 --> 01:49:25,100 sources is true there are over a hundred 2321 01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:28,040 million dollars in debt the things that 2322 01:49:33,610 --> 01:49:31,010 they're producing are entertainment 2323 01:49:37,930 --> 01:49:33,620 oriented rather than what I would call 2324 01:49:40,450 --> 01:49:37,940 hard educational oriented it seems a bit 2325 01:49:46,690 --> 01:49:40,460 like an elitist clique to me I hope I'm 2326 01:49:48,299 --> 01:49:46,700 wrong I want to be wrong I I think our 2327 01:49:52,470 --> 01:49:48,309 lead protagonists 2328 01:49:55,109 --> 01:49:52,480 Tom DeLonge is is very sincere I don't 2329 01:49:59,520 --> 01:49:55,119 know whether he's being you know led 2330 01:50:02,279 --> 01:49:59,530 along by people who want to see him fail 2331 01:50:05,580 --> 01:50:02,289 or whether or not he has truly you know 2332 01:50:08,100 --> 01:50:05,590 important contacts deep within the 2333 01:50:10,830 --> 01:50:08,110 intelligence community or what have you 2334 01:50:12,299 --> 01:50:10,840 that's Stanton Friedman would say that's 2335 01:50:13,169 --> 01:50:12,309 going to remain in my gray box for now 2336 01:50:15,540 --> 01:50:13,179 okey-dokey 2337 01:50:19,169 --> 01:50:15,550 now this is the most important question 2338 01:50:23,790 --> 01:50:19,179 of the evening is evening here anyway so 2339 01:50:26,669 --> 01:50:23,800 what's I'm sitting down no it's okay 2340 01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:26,679 a adjust slightly you mentioned earlier 2341 01:50:29,790 --> 01:50:28,690 he was reading comic books when your 2342 01:50:31,620 --> 01:50:29,800 event took place 2343 01:50:33,750 --> 01:50:31,630 what were the comic books you were 2344 01:50:39,390 --> 01:50:33,760 reading is your Batman or Superman fan 2345 01:50:42,359 --> 01:50:39,400 oh my gosh yeah in the early 60s the 2346 01:50:45,689 --> 01:50:42,369 world was not filled with superheroes 2347 01:50:48,629 --> 01:50:45,699 I was you know this is such a long time 2348 01:50:54,270 --> 01:50:48,639 ago in such an innocent time to be a kid 2349 01:50:56,660 --> 01:50:54,280 in America I guess it was Superman you 2350 01:50:59,339 --> 01:50:56,670 can't be Superman he's an illegal alien 2351 01:51:03,870 --> 01:50:59,349 how can you be so pabout he's got to be 2352 01:51:05,549 --> 01:51:03,880 Batman Batman was around but he I don't 2353 01:51:09,750 --> 01:51:05,559 think he really entered into my lexicon 2354 01:51:13,140 --> 01:51:09,760 much I like the the kind of ghoulish you 2355 01:51:16,229 --> 01:51:13,150 know the horror sort of comics with you 2356 01:51:18,330 --> 01:51:16,239 know vampires and you know people with 2357 01:51:20,669 --> 01:51:18,340 eyeballs falling out of their heads and 2358 01:51:23,189 --> 01:51:20,679 that kind of thing I also you know 2359 01:51:29,549 --> 01:51:23,199 Archie which was stuck in the early 2360 01:51:32,069 --> 01:51:29,559 1940s innocent goofy American fun it was 2361 01:51:34,529 --> 01:51:32,079 again such another time but I was an 2362 01:51:43,250 --> 01:51:34,539 avid reader at that point and I was 2363 01:51:46,470 --> 01:51:45,689 adventures and derring-do kind of 2364 01:51:49,830 --> 01:51:46,480 stories 2365 01:51:52,799 --> 01:51:49,840 I collected stamps and and I think that 2366 01:51:56,819 --> 01:51:52,809 the passion of travel which has been a 2367 01:51:58,770 --> 01:51:56,829 big part of my life was rooted in being 2368 01:52:01,240 --> 01:51:58,780 a little kid and holding a piece of 2369 01:52:05,260 --> 01:52:01,250 paper that came from India 2370 01:52:07,180 --> 01:52:05,270 or China or France and at this point in 2371 01:52:09,580 --> 01:52:07,190 my life although some of it's been 2372 01:52:11,080 --> 01:52:09,590 because of ufology I've been lucky 2373 01:52:12,430 --> 01:52:11,090 enough to travel to quite a number of 2374 01:52:15,970 --> 01:52:12,440 places I would not have visited 2375 01:52:19,930 --> 01:52:15,980 otherwise I started young and after I 2376 01:52:23,710 --> 01:52:19,940 got out of art school thankfully managed 2377 01:52:26,230 --> 01:52:23,720 to get a deferment from the United 2378 01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:26,240 States Army I did not serve in Vietnam a 2379 01:52:31,630 --> 01:52:28,970 war that for me was as wrong as it could 2380 01:52:33,340 --> 01:52:31,640 be and that I was ready to lose show my 2381 01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:33,350 feelings on and leave the countries if 2382 01:52:37,540 --> 01:52:35,570 it came to that I think history has 2383 01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:37,550 proved me right but I knew I needed some 2384 01:52:42,970 --> 01:52:39,850 kind of coming of age experience I 2385 01:52:44,500 --> 01:52:42,980 became a common deckhand in on a 2386 01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:44,510 freighter in the Norwegian Merchant 2387 01:52:48,310 --> 01:52:46,610 Marine and shipped out and then just 2388 01:52:51,010 --> 01:52:48,320 started drifting east and spent a year 2389 01:52:54,460 --> 01:52:51,020 on the road by myself and have probably 2390 01:52:56,050 --> 01:52:54,470 visited lived in spent time in more than 2391 01:52:59,080 --> 01:52:56,060 30 countries at this point in my life 2392 01:53:01,330 --> 01:52:59,090 and even if it's going to do a talk in 2393 01:53:04,180 --> 01:53:01,340 another town I'm up for it 2394 01:53:06,430 --> 01:53:04,190 I love travel I love being in places 2395 01:53:09,790 --> 01:53:06,440 I've never been or returning to places 2396 01:53:11,680 --> 01:53:09,800 that I adore meeting people that I would 2397 01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:11,690 have never met otherwise or reconnecting 2398 01:53:16,510 --> 01:53:13,610 with old friends that I meant through 2399 01:53:17,980 --> 01:53:16,520 traveling and I think in that sense I'm 2400 01:53:20,440 --> 01:53:17,990 one of the most fortunate people that I 2401 01:53:22,060 --> 01:53:20,450 know well I think that we should get you 2402 01:53:24,460 --> 01:53:22,070 across here for one of our conferences 2403 01:53:24,850 --> 01:53:24,470 at some point I certainly do I certainly 2404 01:53:29,140 --> 01:53:24,860 don't 2405 01:53:32,350 --> 01:53:29,150 Peter Robbins author investigator 2406 01:53:36,250 --> 01:53:32,360 artist and photographer which we haven't 2407 01:53:38,500 --> 01:53:36,260 discussed thank you very much on inside 2408 01:53:42,070 --> 01:53:38,510 outer limits gentlemen it's been my 2409 01:53:45,130 --> 01:53:42,080 honor so good spending this time with 2410 01:53:47,290 --> 01:53:45,140 you thank you for having me and I'll 2411 01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:47,300 look forward to our next visit 2412 01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:49,130 thank you very much pace that great to 2413 01:53:54,220 --> 01:53:51,050 speak we yeah major what would the 2414 01:53:56,950 --> 01:53:54,230 speeches you know I live in pancha Frank 2415 01:53:58,600 --> 01:53:56,960 now not very used to live I could take 2416 01:54:00,190 --> 01:53:58,610 you in a couple of pubsey and PG you 2417 01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:00,200 wish you never stuff okay not gonna 2418 01:54:06,010 --> 01:54:04,250 Julia you have a date man and listen 2419 01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:06,020 just so I'm saying it right here 2420 01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:08,330 from now on when you have anything to 2421 01:54:13,739 --> 01:54:10,970 post on my page don't ask me just post 2422 01:54:16,009 --> 01:54:13,749 it and you too Chris okay 2423 01:54:17,939 --> 01:54:16,019 very much better just before I do finish 2424 01:54:20,639 --> 01:54:17,949 go on this 2425 01:54:22,889 --> 01:54:20,649 sorry pair Phil just before I do finish 2426 01:54:25,799 --> 01:54:22,899 I would love an article from you about 2427 01:54:29,639 --> 01:54:25,809 your about bud if for the magazine if 2428 01:54:31,289 --> 01:54:29,649 you could do that at some point you 2429 01:54:33,479 --> 01:54:31,299 never get Amazing Grace 2430 01:54:36,929 --> 01:54:33,489 no I didn't know unfortunately not no I 2431 01:54:39,329 --> 01:54:36,939 did read intruders which was of course a 2432 01:54:45,839 --> 01:54:39,339 long time ago but I would just love to 2433 01:54:48,499 --> 01:54:45,849 share his experience with readers kept 2434 01:54:52,769 --> 01:54:48,509 his sense of humor Denis Peter 2435 01:54:54,599 --> 01:54:52,779 I read his autobiography out life and 2436 01:54:57,149 --> 01:54:54,609 UFOs it's the last book I read in one 2437 01:55:00,629 --> 01:54:57,159 sitting yeah I told him the reason I did 2438 01:55:05,159 --> 01:55:00,639 it I've taken this this drink to clear 2439 01:55:08,849 --> 01:55:05,169 my bowels I was going for a still 2440 01:55:13,109 --> 01:55:08,859 recording by the way Phil here still 2441 01:55:15,119 --> 01:55:13,119 recording fellow choice you know I 2442 01:55:18,629 --> 01:55:15,129 needed something to read and he laughed 2443 01:55:20,399 --> 01:55:18,639 you know he did hey I know we're still 2444 01:55:23,069 --> 01:55:20,409 on the air I'll just close it by saying 2445 01:55:25,469 --> 01:55:23,079 as he was dying a few months before he 2446 01:55:26,639 --> 01:55:25,479 died he when he would tell a joke and 2447 01:55:28,049 --> 01:55:26,649 sometimes you wouldn't know it was 2448 01:55:30,719 --> 01:55:28,059 coming till the punchline cuz he did 2449 01:55:33,629 --> 01:55:30,729 totally dead and he's what he said to me 2450 01:55:36,169 --> 01:55:33,639 was you know you they say that there are 2451 01:55:39,419 --> 01:55:36,179 three ages of man there's youth 2452 01:55:42,509 --> 01:55:39,429 middle-aged and old age he looked like 2453 01:55:46,199 --> 01:55:42,519 hell at this point in his life and he 2454 01:55:49,229 --> 01:55:46,209 said I've learned that as I'm coming 2455 01:55:51,449 --> 01:55:49,239 closer to the end there are really four 2456 01:55:53,969 --> 01:55:51,459 ages and he looked at me and he said 2457 01:55:55,469 --> 01:55:53,979 youth middle age old age then he looked 2458 01:56:02,459 --> 01:55:55,479 me up and down and looked at my eyes and 2459 01:56:04,859 --> 01:56:02,469 he said and you look good thank you 2460 01:56:08,599 --> 01:56:04,869 Peter will sound off with that no 2461 01:56:11,519 --> 01:56:08,609 gentleman you have a pleasant day Peter 2462 01:56:13,289 --> 01:56:11,529 just one thing although I've never met 2463 01:56:17,129 --> 01:56:13,299 you Father please do send you my love 2464 01:56:19,439 --> 01:56:17,139 and I mean nuts yes me as well Peter I I 2465 01:56:21,479 --> 01:56:19,449 will thank you very much for that both 2466 01:56:23,639 --> 01:56:21,489 of you and I'll go see him right now and 2467 01:56:25,469 --> 01:56:23,649 do just outer limits magazine are 2468 01:56:26,140 --> 01:56:25,479 pleased to announce the date and the 2469 01:56:28,689 --> 01:56:26,150 venue for 2470 01:56:31,810 --> 01:56:28,699 20:19 Outer Limits magazine conference 2471 01:56:35,410 --> 01:56:31,820 this will be our third such event the 2472 01:56:37,689 --> 01:56:35,420 date Saturday the 17th of August 2019 2473 01:56:40,540 --> 01:56:37,699 and the venue will be the Pontefract 2474 01:56:43,810 --> 01:56:40,550 town halls Assembly Rooms we have 2475 01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:43,820 seating for 250 at ground level this is 2476 01:56:49,810 --> 01:56:47,090 a strictly limited number so access is 2477 01:56:52,720 --> 01:56:49,820 on a first-come first-served basis this 2478 01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:52,730 fantastic venue is situated close to all 2479 01:56:57,729 --> 01:56:55,370 three are ponte frank's railway stations 2480 01:56:59,979 --> 01:56:57,739 with monk hill being the closest 2481 01:57:02,350 --> 01:56:59,989 literally a 10-minute walk away from the 2482 01:57:04,149 --> 01:57:02,360 venue Bill's traveling by car car 2483 01:57:06,070 --> 01:57:04,159 parking is less than a five-minute walk 2484 01:57:09,189 --> 01:57:06,080 from the venue and it's currently 2485 01:57:10,689 --> 01:57:09,199 charged at 4:00 pal 50 all day the Ponte 2486 01:57:13,149 --> 01:57:10,699 front bus station is less than two 2487 01:57:15,459 --> 01:57:13,159 minutes away from the venue and Saturday 2488 01:57:17,800 --> 01:57:15,469 is also a Ponte fracks market day with 2489 01:57:20,050 --> 01:57:17,810 many facilities available there is also 2490 01:57:23,110 --> 01:57:20,060 a many sandwich shops fish and chip 2491 01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:23,120 shops and other types of food available 2492 01:57:28,149 --> 01:57:25,610 all within a five-minute walk of the 2493 01:57:31,450 --> 01:57:28,159 venue and Pontefract as good access to 2494 01:57:33,610 --> 01:57:31,460 both the m1 and the m62 it is with honor 2495 01:57:35,290 --> 01:57:33,620 and a little bit of excitement that 2496 01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:35,300 outer limits magazine can now announce 2497 01:57:40,330 --> 01:57:38,570 the speakers for it's 2019 event towards 2498 01:57:43,090 --> 01:57:40,340 the events working under the banner 2499 01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:43,100 title of the closest of encounters as 2500 01:57:48,310 --> 01:57:45,650 always shall be Outer Limits magazine 2501 01:57:50,350 --> 01:57:48,320 editor Chris Evers it will present a 2502 01:57:52,750 --> 01:57:50,360 talk on a subject irrelevant to the 2503 01:57:55,000 --> 01:57:52,760 theme of the conference making his Outer 2504 01:57:57,880 --> 01:57:55,010 Limits magazine conference debut shall 2505 01:58:00,040 --> 01:57:57,890 be author and experienced a Philippine 2506 01:58:02,050 --> 01:58:00,050 seller who shall discuss is though an 2507 01:58:04,899 --> 01:58:02,060 extremely close encounter event and 2508 01:58:07,209 --> 01:58:04,909 personal experiences making his third 2509 01:58:10,120 --> 01:58:07,219 appearance and out limits magazine event 2510 01:58:12,130 --> 01:58:10,130 will be Paul Sinclair to discuss more 2511 01:58:14,890 --> 01:58:12,140 details of his investigation and 2512 01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:14,900 findings Outer Limits magazine associate 2513 01:58:19,149 --> 01:58:16,850 editor Malcolm Robinson will be 2514 01:58:21,220 --> 01:58:19,159 returning to discuss his new publication 2515 01:58:24,250 --> 01:58:21,230 all about the bobtail a close encounter 2516 01:58:26,350 --> 01:58:24,260 or as it's also known the Dec mock woods 2517 01:58:28,990 --> 01:58:26,360 incident and is with great honor that we 2518 01:58:30,850 --> 01:58:29,000 announce our very special speaker making 2519 01:58:33,580 --> 01:58:30,860 a trip to the United Kingdom from 2520 01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:33,590 America with what shall be his first of 2521 01:58:38,560 --> 01:58:35,810 a visit to the okay to present its own 2522 01:58:39,610 --> 01:58:38,570 story in a public forum that shall be 2523 01:58:41,500 --> 01:58:39,620 the only room 2524 01:58:44,680 --> 01:58:41,510 witness to this famous pascagoula 2525 01:58:46,450 --> 01:58:44,690 abduction Calvin Parker without a doubt 2526 01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:46,460 this will be a once-in-a-lifetime chance 2527 01:58:51,130 --> 01:58:48,650 to meet and hear Calvin's most 2528 01:58:53,500 --> 01:58:51,140 intriguing case straight from the only 2529 01:58:56,530 --> 01:58:53,510 surviving witness working alongside our 2530 01:58:58,930 --> 01:58:56,540 limits magazine is michael most of the 2531 01:59:01,240 --> 01:58:58,940 new inside our limits radio show that's 2532 01:59:03,660 --> 01:59:01,250 philip mantle the publisher at flying 2533 01:59:06,040 --> 01:59:03,670 disc press and philip is no stranger to 2534 01:59:07,930 --> 01:59:06,050 investigations himself we are extremely 2535 01:59:10,270 --> 01:59:07,940 grateful for Philips continued support 2536 01:59:12,460 --> 01:59:10,280 of our limits magazine and our endeavors 2537 01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:12,470 tickets for the day are priced at twenty 2538 01:59:18,820 --> 01:59:15,050 pound each plus a 1 pound ATT paypal fee 2539 01:59:22,890 --> 01:59:18,830 and are now available to order at Chris 2540 01:59:27,010 --> 01:59:22,900 zero five nine seven dot Wix site comm 2541 01:59:30,460 --> 01:59:27,020 forward slash outer - limits 2542 01:59:33,100 --> 01:59:30,470 - mag and remember we have strictly a 2543 01:59:35,500 --> 01:59:33,110 limited seating available to a maximum 2544 01:59:37,390 --> 01:59:35,510 250 since the announcement the tickets 2545 01:59:40,390 --> 01:59:37,400 were available they have already started 2546 01:59:42,610 --> 01:59:40,400 selling and very quickly so don't miss 2547 01:59:45,040 --> 01:59:42,620 out get your tickets straight away and 2548 01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:45,050 tickets shall be posted out so please at 2549 01:59:48,310 --> 01:59:47,690 least 14 days to receive them we'll see